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Smeddy24
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1778
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 Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| eddaket wrote: | I don't know if this has been brought up, but it's something I feel should be brought up regarding PAL and NTSC.
If you have a PAL game and an NTSC game, there is no difference between the engines. Absolutely zero. The games are essentially identical, except one is originally set to be played on 50 Hz, and one is set to be played on 60 Hz. The engines cannot be considered to be different because we can use NTSC games to play on PAL (which if the two engines were different, then the game would have two engines built into it, which would in turn mean you are FCing it on an engine given by the game).
This is why I believe FCing it all on NTSC except one song and then FCing the last song on PAL is a FGFC. It's the same game and same engine. Just different way the console displays them. |
I agree, and this is coming as a guy who programs computers. The program tells the computer (in this case, a game console) what to display, not how to display it. The way I'm remembering this working is you use some hack to change the PS2s display mechanism, right? That doesn't trickle down. Computer system design says that that's a detail that belongs at the system level, and the applications (games) don't have to worry about it.
| voidedalive2x wrote: | One point I'd like to add about DLC: You could actually say they have a home engine. Like, DLC released in RB1's time would technically have to be FCed on that engine, DLC in RB2 would have to be FCed on RB2's engine, etc.
I know the consensus about this has already been chosen, but I just wanted to point that out.
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This is a little tricky because there are songs that have RB2 features released well before RB2(A Devo song with HOPO chords or marked hopos? something like that). Not the case with RB2>3, of course. Additionally, I'm not sure what the point is. There are some songs that are more impressive to have FC'd in the RB1 engine(talkies), so let someone take that title, rather than insist on some invented notion of home.
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Pas26
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 3664
Location: Québec, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Smeddy24 wrote: | | eddaket wrote: | I don't know if this has been brought up, but it's something I feel should be brought up regarding PAL and NTSC.
If you have a PAL game and an NTSC game, there is no difference between the engines. Absolutely zero. The games are essentially identical, except one is originally set to be played on 50 Hz, and one is set to be played on 60 Hz. The engines cannot be considered to be different because we can use NTSC games to play on PAL (which if the two engines were different, then the game would have two engines built into it, which would in turn mean you are FCing it on an engine given by the game).
This is why I believe FCing it all on NTSC except one song and then FCing the last song on PAL is a FGFC. It's the same game and same engine. Just different way the console displays them. |
I agree, and this is coming as a guy who programs computers. The program tells the computer (in this case, a game console) what to display, not how to display it. The way I'm remembering this working is you use some hack to change the PS2s display mechanism, right? That doesn't trickle down. Computer system design says that that's a detail that belongs at the system level, and the applications (games) don't have to worry about it.
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Let's not play on the word choice. If we define as "engine" what the game let's you do to hit notes (That's the widely accepted definition) then the engine are different. The display setting obviously change the "engine" under that definition.
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D3NVR07
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 971
Location: THE DAMN GHETTO
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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My only question that is related to this is what if I FC a song on an RB1 disk then FC it on a RB2/3 disk is it considered 2 seperate FC's? Shit if you want my personal opinion I feel like the term should be dropped or reffered to as "All *insert game here* FC'ed. Seeing how the chart is exactly the same it hella shouldn't matter also knowing that some can not be done with one game and but the same task could be done on another but easier why not take the easier option. It's asking a boat to beat a plane in a race across the world shit aint gonna happen son
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fudrick
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2372
Location: Orlando, Florida
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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IMO, strum limit should be considered part of the engine, so therefore PAL and NTSC are different engines. We're using "engine" to describe the way in which the game processes notes, and PAL certainly processes more strums than NTSC. Different engines.
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FC Goals: GH1 - 46 [43] | GH2 - 64 [63] | GH80's - 30 [29] | GH3 - 70 [68] | GHA - 41 [00] | GHWT - 85 [00] | GHM - 48 [10] | GHSH - 47 [00] | RB2 - 84 [02]
   
  
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Munzapoppa
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
Posts: 690
Location: In front of my PS3, feeding my addiction to Green Day Rock Band. NO I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM!!!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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A FGFC should be considered accomplished when all of the songs from a game's setlist are FCed. Those songs altogether make up the "full game". There shouldn't have to be big changes in the definition just because a small amount of songs (in RB1's case, just 1) are easier in a different game. To get a RB1 FGFC, you still need to FC the other 57 songs, which is not an easy task in itself. And the GGaHT chart is still the same in RB3 as it is in RB1, so you still have to hit the long strumming part, it's just that the engine is more forgiving.
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Smeddy24
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1778
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| Pas26 wrote: | | Smeddy24 wrote: | | eddaket wrote: | I don't know if this has been brought up, but it's something I feel should be brought up regarding PAL and NTSC.
If you have a PAL game and an NTSC game, there is no difference between the engines. Absolutely zero. The games are essentially identical, except one is originally set to be played on 50 Hz, and one is set to be played on 60 Hz. The engines cannot be considered to be different because we can use NTSC games to play on PAL (which if the two engines were different, then the game would have two engines built into it, which would in turn mean you are FCing it on an engine given by the game).
This is why I believe FCing it all on NTSC except one song and then FCing the last song on PAL is a FGFC. It's the same game and same engine. Just different way the console displays them. |
I agree, and this is coming as a guy who programs computers. The program tells the computer (in this case, a game console) what to display, not how to display it. The way I'm remembering this working is you use some hack to change the PS2s display mechanism, right? That doesn't trickle down. Computer system design says that that's a detail that belongs at the system level, and the applications (games) don't have to worry about it.
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Let's not play on the word choice. If we define as "engine" what the game let's you do to hit notes (That's the widely accepted definition) then the engine are different. The display setting obviously change the "engine" under that definition. |
If we define "engine" that way, we've defined "engine" incorrectly. That's a bastardization based on the way this community uses the word. Strictly speaking, the way this community uses the term engine refers more towards the specific rules unique to each iteration of the game. Those are included in each game's engine, but are not the entirety of the engine. The engine is part of the application. The display mode is a setting in the operating system. The engine runs on top of the operating system.
As Pas noted, there's seems to be a lot of statement of opinion in this thread. While I welcome that, it's not particularly helpful in resolving anything. I would like to see a couple of fact-based arguments (even if the facts and the conclusions seem painfully obvious to you) for the "Game = setlist" position.
Things that aren't making sense to me, and I would like explained:
It's the same chart, just in a different engine.
So I can go play BATM in GH2 and count that towards a GH1FGFC? Same chart, different engine.
If you say, no, why not? Hint: If you say "The engines are different.", then we agree that games are more than just their setlist.
Can I claim a GH1FGFC by FCing BATM in RB2, via customs ?Same chart, different engine.
If customs don't count, why not? Hint: If you're thinking about saying "Because SH doesn't accept customs", we agree. And no, the fact that you can modify a GH1 song before putting it into GH2 isn't the reason. Even with video proof, it's not accepted.
It's impossible/ridiculously hard to FC [song] in [engine].
So?
Game = setlist
This argument seems to be opinion-based. I'll admit that it's my opinion that game is the disc/engine/rules in the engine, but that's also ScoreHero's, and AFAIK, always has been (again, BATM in GH1).
I'm not sure what the arguments for this position are. I can see the point-ish with regards to track packs, which are built from DLC and for export, but not for full games.
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Brockbfball1563 
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 3245
Location: Rochester, NH
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Munzapoppa wrote: | | A FGFC should be considered accomplished when all of the songs from a game's setlist are FCed. Those songs altogether make up the "full game". There shouldn't have to be big changes in the definition just because a small amount of songs (in RB1's case, just 1) are easier in a different game. To get a RB1 FGFC, you still need to FC the other 57 songs, which is not an easy task in itself. And the GGaHT chart is still the same in RB3 as it is in RB1, so you still have to hit the long strumming part, it's just that the engine is more forgiving. |
But again, if I FCed Bark at the Moon and Frankenstein on GH2, and then got the rest of the GH1 setlist in GH1, did I just FGFC GH1?
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kingyami3
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 956
Location: N. Attleboro, MA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Brockbfball1563 wrote: | | Munzapoppa wrote: | | A FGFC should be considered accomplished when all of the songs from a game's setlist are FCed. Those songs altogether make up the "full game". There shouldn't have to be big changes in the definition just because a small amount of songs (in RB1's case, just 1) are easier in a different game. To get a RB1 FGFC, you still need to FC the other 57 songs, which is not an easy task in itself. And the GGaHT chart is still the same in RB3 as it is in RB1, so you still have to hit the long strumming part, it's just that the engine is more forgiving. |
But again, if I FCed Bark at the Moon and Frankenstein on GH2, and then got the rest of the GH1 setlist in GH1, did I just FGFC GH1? |
once again, on GH2, thats DLC, not imports
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Munzapoppa
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
Posts: 690
Location: In front of my PS3, feeding my addiction to Green Day Rock Band. NO I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM!!!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| kingyami3 wrote: | | Brockbfball1563 wrote: | | Munzapoppa wrote: | | A FGFC should be considered accomplished when all of the songs from a game's setlist are FCed. Those songs altogether make up the "full game". There shouldn't have to be big changes in the definition just because a small amount of songs (in RB1's case, just 1) are easier in a different game. To get a RB1 FGFC, you still need to FC the other 57 songs, which is not an easy task in itself. And the GGaHT chart is still the same in RB3 as it is in RB1, so you still have to hit the long strumming part, it's just that the engine is more forgiving. |
But again, if I FCed Bark at the Moon and Frankenstein on GH2, and then got the rest of the GH1 setlist in GH1, did I just FGFC GH1? |
once again, on GH2, thats DLC, not imports |
Exactly. The imports are different in the fact that they are the exact same charts, except moved to a different game. DLC is different. After all, no one considers an FC of the Run to the Hills (Original Version) DLC as a Run to the Hills (RB1 cover) FC. Same with the 3 Bon Jovi repeats coming as DLC next week, or the 9 packs of RB2 Harmonix-band songs coming later on. Those should not be considered as FCs of the disc/import versions of those songs.
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ProffessorJoe  
Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Munzapoppa wrote: |
Exactly. The imports are different in the fact that they are the exact same charts, except moved to a different game. DLC is different. After all, no one considers an FC of the Run to the Hills (Original Version) DLC as a Run to the Hills (RB1 cover) FC. Same with the 3 Bon Jovi repeats coming as DLC next week, or the 9 packs of RB2 Harmonix-band songs coming later on. Those should not be considered as FCs of the disc/import versions of those songs. |
Why does DLC get special treatment? Your run to the hills example fails because its not even the same song. BATM (unless i am completely wrong) IS the exact same chart, just moved to another engine. In other words, why does that not count, but it WOULD have counted if it were exported instead? Does this not do the exact same thing?
To me, a full GAME fc cannot be accomplished on a different GAME that has a different engine. It is just not the same at all if you fc Timmy on vocals in rb2. It takes a VERY hard fc and makes it basically a tier 1 fc. You guess go ahead and call it whatever you want, but to anyone that has grinded RB1 vocals, playing anything in RB2 and calling it a RB1 FGFC is just insulting. When i fc GGAHT on gutiar in RB3 there is no way in hell i would ever call it a RB1 FGFC, because i most certainly did NOT fc the full RB1 game.
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kingyami3
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 956
Location: N. Attleboro, MA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ProffessorJoe wrote: | Why does DLC get special treatment? Your run to the hills example fails because its not even the same song. BATM (unless i am completely wrong) IS the exact same chart, just moved to another engine. In other words, why does that not count, but it WOULD have counted if it were exported instead? Does this not do the exact same thing?
To me, a full GAME fc cannot be accomplished on a different GAME that has a different engine. It is just not the same at all if you fc Timmy on vocals in rb2. It takes a VERY hard fc and makes it basically a tier 1 fc. You guess go ahead and call it whatever you want, but to anyone that has grinded RB1 vocals, playing anything in RB2 and calling it a RB1 FGFC is just insulting. When i fc GGAHT on gutiar in RB3 there is no way in hell i would ever call it a RB1 FGFC, because i most certainly did NOT fc the full RB1 game. |
youre clearly talking more specifically about vocals, in which case i would agree with you 100%, however, for gtr/bass/drums the engines are identical enough that the only difference is visual/calibration, something you have stated numerous times in the past if im not mistaken, joe.
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Brockbfball1563
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
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Location: Rochester, NH
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Munzapoppa wrote: | | kingyami3 wrote: | | Brockbfball1563 wrote: | | Munzapoppa wrote: | | A FGFC should be considered accomplished when all of the songs from a game's setlist are FCed. Those songs altogether make up the "full game". There shouldn't have to be big changes in the definition just because a small amount of songs (in RB1's case, just 1) are easier in a different game. To get a RB1 FGFC, you still need to FC the other 57 songs, which is not an easy task in itself. And the GGaHT chart is still the same in RB3 as it is in RB1, so you still have to hit the long strumming part, it's just that the engine is more forgiving. |
But again, if I FCed Bark at the Moon and Frankenstein on GH2, and then got the rest of the GH1 setlist in GH1, did I just FGFC GH1? |
once again, on GH2, thats DLC, not imports |
Exactly. The imports are different in the fact that they are the exact same charts, except moved to a different game. DLC is different. |
Umm, they are the exact same charts. Note-for-note. And sp is even in the same place. There's nothing different about them.
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ProffessorJoe
Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| kingyami3 wrote: |
youre clearly talking more specifically about vocals, in which case i would agree with you 100%, however, for gtr/bass/drums the engines are identical enough that the only difference is visual/calibration, something you have stated numerous times in the past if im not mistaken, joe. |
I agree, the gtr/bass/drum engines are pretty close. However, i still stand by my point. Its still not a FGFC if its not on the game it came from. Vocals is just the perfect example of why i believe it should be this way. Its just that, at least to me, it can't be one without the other. If you must fc all of the rb1 vox songs on rb1 to claim a FGFC, you should have to with every other instrument.
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FL4RE
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 4178
Location: Liverpool yano
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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For me a FGFC is where you FC every song in a particular game on the original game engine (as in rb1 FGFC = every song FC'ed ON RB1). It doesnt have to be console specific or region specific (as with the case of Trogdor) just so long as it is done on the game the song came from.
So say I fc'ed 57/58 on rb1 & fc'ed ggaht on rb3. That would not be a FGFC because it is easily (well not easily but doable) to FC ggaht on rb1 on both PAL & NTSC. In other words, what Ace did imo wasn't a FGFC for obvious reasons.
*EDIT* just in case people might see this as me flaming ace or w/e, i'm not. It was the first example that came into my head.
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Last edited by FL4RE on Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RyRobo
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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I'm of pretty much zero understanding compared to most of you all, but I've followed the Rock Band scene long enough to know this has been discussed again and again over on the vocals side of things since the RB1 export. I think their solution, because nobody could come to an agreement, was just labelling their accomplishments in more depth.
If we look at all the banners people have in their signatures showing their greatest achievements you'll have seen the best vocal guys around with a RB1 FGFC and with the vocal sign having a little label above it saying 'RB1' to show that, yes, their RB1 FGFC entirely took place in RB1.
I think the guitar guys could do with this too, I can see FL4RE has already done this with the Thrasher and Embedded FC's, so why not just make it simple? If you FC all the songs in RB1 but the FC's are scattered across all engines still class it as a FGFC, but if you're solid enough to manage all that in RB1 or RB2, just label it so in the banner? It's a rare case that somebody gets a Crawl FC anyway, but if somebody managed it in RB1 NTSC (lol) why can't they just make it clear they did it in the hardest circumstances possible?
It seems to me this method just seems to be a more positive for everybody. Those who feel they've managed a FGFC are rewarded with pretty banners, and those who manage FGFC's on the harder engine are rewarded with prettier banners. |
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