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Full Band Overdrive Pathing 101
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Slowhand  
 




Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 625
Location: Lombard, Illinois

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kudos to the SH'ers playing rocket scientists..........

If the Bitch Goddess of Irony has her way, after spending hours to create the optimum path, someone of the 4 piece will miss the critical unison or OD phrase or the vocalist won't get the activation in the 0.09 sec activation spot, or then blow the streak because ya didn't get back on ptich in the nano second it started.

But I have no doubt as to the dedication of SHer's in getting closest to optimum score.......... that's just what chart addicts do.

At my level obviously a "wingin' it" path with a better performance will do more than opt. path through parts I can't streak. But that's me.

There is one thing, and maybe my impression is way off. There are points when 2 or more activate and it "seems" as though the OD use it up rate is different for different instruments. That awkwardly meant that OD won't last as long for guitar compared to drums etc or vice versa. Is this the case? Or am I just missing the other instrument getting a very short OD phrase extending that activation length? Hope that question made sense.

And here's my "I'm an SH veteran and should be able to find this but I haven't 'cause I'm stoopid" question. If I remember right GH coop SP lasts 6 measures. Does this hold true in RB? or does OD last 8 Measures in coop? Basic knowledge I lack, and yes I should know better.
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batsmak  
 




Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 853
Location: Fredericksburg, VA

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slowhand wrote:
Kudos to the SH'ers playing rocket scientists..........

If the Bitch Goddess of Irony has her way, after spending hours to create the optimum path, someone of the 4 piece will miss the critical unison or OD phrase or the vocalist won't get the activation in the 0.09 sec activation spot, or then blow the streak because ya didn't get back on ptich in the nano second it started.

But I have no doubt as to the dedication of SHer's in getting closest to optimum score.......... that's just what chart addicts do.

At my level obviously a "wingin' it" path with a better performance will do more than opt. path through parts I can't streak. But that's me.

There is one thing, and maybe my impression is way off. There are points when 2 or more activate and it "seems" as though the OD use it up rate is different for different instruments. That awkwardly meant that OD won't last as long for guitar compared to drums etc or vice versa. Is this the case? Or am I just missing the other instrument getting a very short OD phrase extending that activation length? Hope that question made sense.

And here's my "I'm an SH veteran and should be able to find this but I haven't 'cause I'm stoopid" question. If I remember right GH coop SP lasts 6 measures. Does this hold true in RB? or does OD last 8 Measures in coop? Basic knowledge I lack, and yes I should know better.


1) I wouldn't call it rocket science, just semi-difficult math and logic (although I'm at the top of my math class, but it's just pre-calc...)

2) each instrument has an independant OD bar that lasts as normal. a full bar is still 32 beats, any differences would be because of whammy, etc.
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ajanata  
 




Joined: 07 Jul 2007
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Location: South Bay Area, CA

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

batsmak wrote:
a full bar is still 32 beats, any differences would be because of whammy, etc.


Except for the funky songs, which normally have an exceptionally low or high tempo (OD lasts half/twice as long, respecitively). I'm still not sure how exactly this is determined from the song data.
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batsmak  
 




Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 853
Location: Fredericksburg, VA

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ajanata wrote:

Except for the funky songs, which normally have an exceptionally low or high tempo (OD lasts half/twice as long, respecitively). I'm still not sure how exactly this is determined from the song data.


Honestly, I don't think there is any constant that determines this. for example,TKAR has 100+ BPM, and only 1/2 length OD activations at the first half, meanwhile songs like in bloom have ~80 BPM, and full length OD. Then there is Tom sawyer which only variates in BPM a little throughout -- and the faster BPM has 1/2 length OD (seriously, WTF?).
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raunch99  
 




Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea for the funky songs, the only solution really is just to play it an adjust. Tom Sawyer took me 2 or 3 iterations to get just right. I am pretty sure that all instruments' OD bars react the same at each part of the song though. It's not like the guitar OD bar would be draining faster than the drums during the same section.
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Slowhand  
 




Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 625
Location: Lombard, Illinois

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Otay, thanks.

I remembered reading the OD isn't perfectly consistant through 150+ songs. And whammy etc explains some, but I still think there were dramatic use it up rates, I just can't provide a good example. i.e. unison bonus, guitar goes off on G crash drum, one dies out much sooner than the other.

Oh yeah thanks for this thread, and the spreadsheet. Not sure if I'll ever use it but it's a decent logical method for counting. Whoever takes the time and effort really deserves #1's.
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raunch99  
 




Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only issue with unison bonus' is depending if you are lagged or not it may take a while for the actual bonus to register. You still get the 1/4 bar from hitting your own phrase, but if one of your bandmates is lagged you might not see that extra 1/4 bar from the bonus show up for sometime. This is especially an issue if you are completely empty and are expecting to get half a bar from a unison bonus and want to activate immediately. If you are lagging you aren't going to be able to activate until that bonus shows up from the lagged bandmate. Just another issue with playing online......
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sburymadness  
 




Joined: 04 Jun 2007
Posts: 869

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raunch, question, just to satisfy my curious brain:

I was looking at attempting to path some songs, so I decided to start out with a few "easy" ones just to get the hang of it, and have a question about vocals, and how the points are given out. I know most of the time, it's very straightforward how to break up a phrase and find the percentage per measure, but I was looking at Say It Ain't So, and noticed the first phrase has a long pause in between the sets of words. Am I supposed to count the beats during long phrases that have pauses between words? Or just the beats that the pitch lines cover during those phrases? I don't have the numbers I came up with just now, but just wanted to know how to do phrases like this, to do them differently or the same as all the rest of the phrases?
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raunch99  
 




Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go read Sully's question and the subsequent responses on p. 6 of this thread.
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sburymadness  
 




Joined: 04 Jun 2007
Posts: 869

PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry lol, thanks
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raunch99  
 




Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Posts: 712
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another issue that pops up every once in a while has to do with drum fills screwing up unison bonuses or overdrive phrases. Occasionally you will have a drum fill that ends right before an overdrive phrase. Usually the green crash at the end of the fill is overwriting the first note of the overdrive phrase, had the fill not been present. Sometimes this will cause the drummer to break the overdrive phrase, sometimes it doesn't - not sure why. I am pretty sure this is an issue with solo drumming as well.

Anyway, this caused a problem last night when we were playing WGFA. If you look at the full band chart, there is a drum fill in m186 that runs over the unison bonus in m187. Since that OD phrase is only 1 note, if the fill runs over it there is no way to hit that note and you do not get the unison bonus. (Note: perhaps it is possible to squeeze that note by hitting the crash then playing note like is done for normal drum squeezing?) Anyway, this forced us to change the path so that fill was not 'active' in m186.

Just wanted to bring that up in case anybody was running into it.
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batsmak  
 




Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 853
Location: Fredericksburg, VA

PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

raunch99 wrote:
Another issue that pops up every once in a while has to do with drum fills screwing up unison bonuses or overdrive phrases. Occasionally you will have a drum fill that ends right before an overdrive phrase. Usually the green crash at the end of the fill is overwriting the first note of the overdrive phrase, had the fill not been present. Sometimes this will cause the drummer to break the overdrive phrase, sometimes it doesn't - not sure why. I am pretty sure this is an issue with solo drumming as well.

Anyway, this caused a problem last night when we were playing WGFA. If you look at the full band chart, there is a drum fill in m186 that runs over the unison bonus in m187. Since that OD phrase is only 1 note, if the fill runs over it there is no way to hit that note and you do not get the unison bonus. (Note: perhaps it is possible to squeeze that note by hitting the crash then playing note like is done for normal drum squeezing?) Anyway, this forced us to change the path so that fill was not 'active' in m186.

Just wanted to bring that up in case anybody was running into it.


99% of the time, it is only an issue with 1 note OD phrases. Electric version is currently the only song we've had issues with non 1-note phrases, but a squeeze took care of everything. Btw, my "optimal"(idk... not tested yet) path for WGFA has OD active over the phrase at 187.
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raunch99  
 




Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

batsmak wrote:

99% of the time, it is only an issue with 1 note OD phrases. Electric version is currently the only song we've had issues with non 1-note phrases, but a squeeze took care of everything. Btw, my "optimal"(idk... not tested yet) path for WGFA has OD active over the phrase at 187.


My original path had an activation starting at m187, but I switched it up after we found this problem. It's so hard to tell what is optimal on songs that are 8 minutes long. I think there were like 9 or 10 activations for each instrument.

The other song we had issues with this was Tom Sawyer. That was a non 1-note phrase, but gurn was able to get around that one by not hitting the bass pedal when he hit the crash at the end of the fill.
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Kawigi  
 




Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2876
Location: Redmond, WA

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

batsmak wrote:
sorry to double post, but this is for a bump of good information


Violinhero, in the voxtar rivalry thread, pointed out that on phrases that you only need ~1/2 of to get awesome, you can delay the activation of the other instruments until part way through the phrase, start singing when you are part way through the phrase, and still get full points, plus extra at the end. it would be hard to figure out exactly, but it would work.


This is actually a very interesting strategy, which I have labeled "end squeezing" (I was originally calling it "reverse squeezing," but that term is used for something else already in vocals :-)). If you're singing a song that you know your vocalist is really comfortable, it's reasonable to assume that the part of a vocal phrase that has the most points can be whichever one you want it to be - A good vocalist on a song they're good at will tend to only need about 80% of the notes in the phrase to fill up the disc (usually meaning the last 20% is worth nothing), but if the vocalist knows that his band is going to start overdrive part-way through a phrase, he can leave off the first couple words of it - however much he thinks he can get away with without missing the phrase - and squeeze the points toward the end of the phrase for a better multiplier. I have to admit I probably sound like an idiot just not singing the first couple words of a phrase (sometimes for a few phrases in a row because I know the guitars are activating soon but I don't remember when).
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Kawigi  
 




Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more observation I've made about full band pathing. There are a couple situations that make this relevant but I'll pick one that's easy to imagine:

You have a place where one instrument is going to be in overdrive for an obscenely long time, let's say it's the guitar part. Now, vocals only has one opportunity to activate in this period of time, and that activation will end before drums has an opportunity to activate. The whole period of time the guitar is burning overdrive has roughly the same point density per measure. When should the bass activate?

a. With the vocals
b. With the drums
c. In between or spanning part of the vocal activation and the drum activation
d. Any of the above as long as it starts after the guitar and ends before the guitar.

It turns out that "d" is correct - let's say the guitar activation is 12 measures, and vocals is there for the first 4 and drums is there for the last 4 and bass is there for any 4, and the points per measure is 5000.

Option a:
6x5000x4
2x5000x4
4x5000x4
=240k

Option b is obviously the same but with a different order.

Option c:
4x5000x4
4x5000x4
4x5000x4
also =240k

The only thing that's bad is if the bass is burning overdrive alone. It seems like, point density being equal, that the goal is to use all the overdrive available in the song while spending as much of your time as possible not using overdrive.
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