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Airtrooper719
Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 235
Location: Newcastle, UK
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 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| yakityyakblah wrote: | | Buddy... they don't have to compete with GH because it's never coming back. They have to differentiate themselves from Rocksmith. |
They are safe, they could continue where RB3 left off and still be nothing like rocksmith.
Rocksmith is a glorified way to play guitar as if through an amp, I think of it as Amplitube with a few mini games and overpriced DLC.
RB3 Pro Guitar is not really for learning or progressing at guitar from a beginner standpoint, it is a game mode designed to be played as a game as intended the same way for all other instruments including plastic, to earn points, stars, and those spade things in the storymode. And to play online with friends.
The hilarious reality is that, I learn songs and retain them far far quicker and easier when I play them on RB3 than I do on Rocksmith. I have numerous world #1's on both the songs and mini-games for both RS games, yet, I can't remember one of them songs nowadays since I stopped playing the games altogether....
RB3, the first ever pro guitar song I learned was Roundabout, and I have never forgotten how to play it by memory, even though I barely play that song in-game anymore.
There is no neccessity to hear your output, or to include techniques not covered in RB3. For those who are proficient guitar players and learn songs through RB3, they will easily identify which notes are bends, where NH and PH are required, e-bow, and any of those other specialist techniques to drive a certain sound.
The same principle applies when playing the 5 button guitar, you do not need to hear any output, you simply mimic the notes on screen, that is the whole core principle of the game.
While it makes sense to introduce sound-based input from electronic drum kits, it doesn't make sense to do this with a guitar.
A drumkit does not have a wide dynamic range of sounds, so therefore it is quite simple to detect what drum/cymbal/crash/kick is being hit because of the almost certain frequencies....
A guitar is an extremely dynamic instrument, and if you plug into an accurate tuner and play the same note 3 times, I guarantee each note will be +/- 3-5 cents off pitch, but then you gotta factor in the intonation of an average (unmaintained) guitar. In my experience, most strings will waver at E+6 A+12 D+4 G+4 B+6 E+7 on average those are the types of ranges of offset from what is considered "in-tune" by use of open strings, or out of tune by using your 12th octave harmonics.... so.... lets assume you play an F# note on the low E (2nd fret), that means with the varying pressure of fretting from your finger, to the intonation, the life/brightness of the string, input d/B volume and pick attack, you are going to be far off an F# note because it has added a lot of pitch and would thus make it around the G-G# range. This means the game thinks your playing fret 3-4 when in reality your playing fret 2.
That theory above is 100% correct, when I tested the rocksmith game mechanics to see just how far you can tip the scale on a given note (which was always around +/- 2 cents from perfect pitch). This also explains why you cannot bend a note to pitch in rocksmith... you must under-bend or over-bend, because the engine's accuracy is flawed. That sort of form of hit detection cannot be easy to accomplish, so in no way am I slating the developers, but I do think there are a few things they could have taken into account.... I mean come on, no matter how perfect I tried playing Surfing with the Alien, it would NEVER detect half the notes due to the speed they are played....RB3 surfin with the alien custom....no problemo! True-Pitch = Fail : MIDI = Win
As you can tell, taking into account a mid-range, barely maintained "sitting in the corner of the room" guitar being played on these games is going to result in very poor hit detection, even on the easy songs.... and god help the budget beginners with their encore/squier strat starter packs..... intonation nightmare.
Hit detection isn't all that important on rocksmith (until they introduced score attack, which is a complete failure of a mode in 2014!)...
Hit detection in RB3 is crucial, as it is entirely based around score. MIDI is a non-dynamic form of sound, because like a keyboard, you cannot make 2 different sounds with one note (sustains and dynamic volume excluded if we are also including piano) , therefore whatever you fret, it is going to be on the mark. Because of this, tricky scale runs and fast lead sections are well within grasp to score points on, and you can bet if you missed, it is entirely that you the player didnt play the correct note/tempo, or, your game calibration was off slightly.
Theres a lot of reading there, however, the summarise my thoughts:
- MIDI input is still a MUST if they are to continue Pro Instruments.
- The Cost to Benefit factor of writing an engine specifically for true-pitch detection to use any 1/4 inch guitar the same as rocksmith is probably very low...therefore I would never expect them to try and go down that route.
- Rocksmith, as a game, even in its polished 2014 edition state, is still broken, it freezes regularly because there is so much going on in the background in terms of detection, the console cannot handle the commands anymore.... the hit detection engine is extremely sloppy, you could play a perfect note and it would miss, yet an extremely sloppy crap sounding chord/note and it hits in a split second...very unpredictable and a game breaker for me.
- There is no plug-n-play alternative to transfer real guitar notes, into MIDI...there are pickups designed for it, but are very expensive and require work/tools to install. Therefore, a MIDI-guitar would still be the only efficient way to go about it.
Last edited by Airtrooper719 on Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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toymachine 
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 9629
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| yakityyakblah wrote: | | Buddy... they don't have to compete with GH because it's never coming back. They have to differentiate themselves from Rocksmith. |
Archived  |
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hewhoislikegod
Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 381
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:39 am Post subject: |
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This thread is frickin' hilarious.  |
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yakityyakblah
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 3985
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| toymachine wrote: | | yakityyakblah wrote: | | Buddy... they don't have to compete with GH because it's never coming back. They have to differentiate themselves from Rocksmith. |
Archived |
*In so far as Guitar Hero refers to a major release in the vain of the rest of the series, not some bullshit phone app or foam toy guitar thing. |
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inv4der
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 9658
Location: Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| yakityyakblah wrote: | | toymachine wrote: | | yakityyakblah wrote: | | Buddy... they don't have to compete with GH because it's never coming back. They have to differentiate themselves from Rocksmith. |
Archived |
*In so far as Guitar Hero refers to a major release in the vain of the rest of the series, not some bullshit phone app or foam toy guitar thing. |
If you think toy doesn't know something we don't, don't be surprised when it turns out he did.
As for pro guitar, I'm pretty sure I never said I wanted it gone, just that I'd understand the decision and that I see valid reasons if they did so.
Also I'd probably never play it, rocksmith's ui looks way better for the concept.
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yakityyakblah
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 3985
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'd love to be wrong, but they already cancelled an in development GH, and I don't even know which dev in Activision would even make it at this point. But again, that'd be a mighty tasty crow to eat.
As for Trooper, I mean you have to again take yourself and think in a mainstream audience mindset. You just broke down in several super long paragraphs the differences, which is interesting mind you, to a degree that little Jimmy at Walmart is never going to care about or notice. This is the comparison you can expect them to do, "Oh this one uses a real guitar, and that one uses a real guitar. I already bought Rocksmith, why do I need another one? Wait I need to buy a special guitar just to play it?! No way!" |
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BowlZ 
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 1472
Location: Aurora, Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I just would like the competitive scene restored.
Pro Instruments muddied up an already convoluted score board and they were hands down the worst thing to see pop up in a band quickplay session
RB3 full band overdrive mechanics were broken (Vox multiplier went down when activated). This piece alone was a shot in the heart for a guys like BTY-v, Interrobang, and FraggleRock.
No score duel took a lot of mindless fun out of playing with friends where we both wanted to play drums or guitar.
RB3 did a lot of things right (allowing personal scores to be recorded in a band setting for one), but they took the competitive spirit I loved so much out of the game. I'd like to see it brought back.
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r0bd0g
Joined: 21 Feb 2010
Posts: 327
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Personal scores in the band setting don't really work for me b/c of how it can be abused...
Vox multiplier glitch for me was the worst thing though yeah. |
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THABEAST721
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 2000
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| BowlZ wrote: | I just would like the competitive scene restored.
Pro Instruments muddied up an already convoluted score board and they were hands down the worst thing to see pop up in a band quickplay session
RB3 full band overdrive mechanics were broken (Vox multiplier went down when activated). This piece alone was a shot in the heart for a guys like BTY-v, Interrobang, and FraggleRock.
No score duel took a lot of mindless fun out of playing with friends where we both wanted to play drums or guitar.
RB3 did a lot of things right (allowing personal scores to be recorded in a band setting for one), but they took the competitive spirit I loved so much out of the game. I'd like to see it brought back. |
And fix the thing that causes you to get more whammy based off of your lag settings. I had no motivation to squeeze this game because people started abusing that in RB2 and beat a lot of my extremely hard earned scores on 0/0 lag. But I agree. I really like the game being competitive, and I didn't feel that was the case at all with RB3.
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augthebomb
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 812
Location: Amherst, NY
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| A good, medium-sized setlist. That's all I care about. |
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singemfrc
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 4407
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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As I'm sitting here right now playing GH:WoR I would really like to see Rock Band implement the staggered chords (playing additional notes while holding one or more) and/or the open bass note. These simple elements make a lot of charts more fun to me. I can sit and play GH:WoR bass all day while most RB bass charts get boring real quick.
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inv4der
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 9658
Location: Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| singemfrc wrote: | | As I'm sitting here right now playing GH:WoR I would really like to see Rock Band implement the staggered chords (playing additional notes while holding one or more) and/or the open bass note. These simple elements make a lot of charts more fun to me. I can sit and play GH:WoR bass all day while most RB bass charts get boring real quick. |
As a someone quite dedicated to five lane bass, I really, really don't want open notes in RB. At least not how they exist in GH, and I don't think there's a better way.
"Staggered chords" would be fine with me though, and they're already in RB anyway on keys.
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singemfrc
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 4407
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Why don't you want it? I think it adds more liveliness (and a tad of realism, since there are obviously open notes on a real bass) to what might otherwise be dull charts. It can make some charts much more mentally challenging, which I think is a good thing.
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inv4der
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 9658
Location: Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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I'll admit that it's mainly because I just don't enjoy them. It's not that I can't do them, but they just make the game less fun for me. (Especially when they're in already annoying patterns without the concept.)
Maybe it's because I mainly play the more difficult bass parts, where they're not boring in RB anyway. Most GH songs have boring bass parts because the song itself is at fault. Sure there's also a lot of boring songs in RB as well, but adding a sixth button wouldn't change that and neither would open notes.
I also don't approve of them being in a game and then being bass only, it's not like you can't do the exact same thing on a guitar.
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singemfrc
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 4407
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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A new survey was just emailed out, and it looks like Hmx is looking for feedback on what features to include in Rock Band 4. Take the survey and help shape the game!
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/7Z2SHPN
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