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The "roll limit" thread?
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DarthFizz  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:36 am    Post subject: The "roll limit" thread? Reply with quote

Just found out what this REALLY was through playing Rebirth and talking with iHomer. In training I'm pretty consistent with most of the fills and blasts, but when I play the fills in quickplay, I'm missing notes as if I'm playing with a whole different calibration. I'm dropping more notes on the fills in quickplay than in training, yet my blast beats are still consistent like before. I guess this is what is called the "roll limit". I'm throwing my opinion in the hat that this exists, since I can clearly see a difference in fill consistency between training and quickplay. It's not only Rebirth, but other songs like Embedded, LTBSBMBT, any fast fill song that I have I've played and have noticed this difference between training and quickplay.

Here are some questions:

~Does this really apply for NTSC players only?
~Is it game-sided or tv-sided?
~Can I buy a PAL version of the game and will that possibly fix it?
~Can playing with an electronic drumkit like rolands fix it?
~Was the roll limit on RB2, TB:RB, or any other game?
~Does ANYbody know ANY way to fix it other than playing it on PAL?

I'm curious to know a little more about this roll limit. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading. =)
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inv4der  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: The "roll limit" thread? Reply with quote

DarthFizz wrote:
~Does this really apply for NTSC players only?

Get a PAL player to test and see.


~Is it game-sided or tv-sided?

Given that the limit exists in the more resource intense full play but not in practice, it could be a game lag issue. (If HMX had implemented a focus mode, that would have been a thing to try.)

~Can I buy a PAL version of the game and will that possibly fix it?

You'd need a PAL Xbox as well, if the limit doesn't exist on PAL.

~Can playing with an electronic drumkit like rolands fix it?

iHomer could easily test this, have him try.

~Was the roll limit on RB2, TB:RB, or any other game?

Again, something easily testable, but there's no indication of it based on what had been done. (Although Ticket to Ride could indicate some sort of quirk in the rolls, and that engine is post-RB2.) All rolls that hadn't been hit before RB3 were hit in RB3 so there's no real historical evidence either way.


~Does ANYbody know ANY way to fix it other than playing it on PAL?

Find out if it's a resource lag and if so how to mitigate that issue. (This also assumes that PAL would fix it which you admit being unsure of.)


Start a kickstarter to pay for HMX to make a patch that adds focus mode and whatever other hardcore stuff is wanted, clearly.
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Hobo111  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some things that I've picked up on from hearing this term tossed around too much

iHomer's rolands, as far as I know, isn't affected.

It doesn't exist on PS3, don't know about Wii.

I don't think it existed on any other game, or at least it was much "higher" (notes has to be faster to be affected)

Definitely game-sided.
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DarthFizz  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: The "roll limit" thread? Reply with quote

inv4der wrote:
1. Get a PAL player to test and see.

2. Given that the limit exists in the more resource intense full play but not in practice, it could be a game lag issue. (If HMX had implemented a focus mode, that would have been a thing to try.)

3. You'd need a PAL Xbox as well, if the limit doesn't exist on PAL.

4. iHomer could easily test this, have him try.

5. Again, something easily testable, but there's no indication of it based on what had been done. (Although Ticket to Ride could indicate some sort of quirk in the rolls, and that engine is post-RB2.) All rolls that hadn't been hit before RB3 were hit in RB3 so there's no real historical evidence either way.

6. Find out if it's a resource lag and if so how to mitigate that issue. (This also assumes that PAL would fix it which you admit being unsure of.)


1. What's a PAL player? lol

2. Noted.

3. Not getting another 360. Mine has 250 GB and too much stuff on it and I don't feel like transferring. I'd rather not blow a bunch of money over something that might not exist.

4. I don't think he can, since I think he's on PAL.

5. I will test certain games to see. Expect a post sometime in the future with results on other games.

6. What's a resource lag? I'm assuming that I have to find out if this "resource lag" is the cause of the roll limit.

Hobo111 wrote:
some things that I've picked up on from hearing this term tossed around too much

1. iHomer's rolands, as far as I know, isn't affected.

2. It doesn't exist on PS3, don't know about Wii.

3. I don't think it existed on any other game, or at least it was much "higher" (notes has to be faster to be affected)

4. Definitely game-sided.


1. It could be because he's on PAL and not NTSC. As far as I know, Vd0g tried using rolands and, although they increased the sensitivity of hitting the notes, the roll limit was still technically "there". I could tell in his newer videos.

2. Well I'm not about to buy a whole new drumkit for the Wii to find that out. I don't even have a PS3. The only person I can think of who can really test this is TimEbaysball, since he plays RB on PS3 and 360.

3. Ok thanks. I'll test this to see it it's actually true, since I have every RB game.

4. Well that changes things a bit. If it's really game-sided, then buying a PAL version should fix it. However, inv4der said in his post that I'd have to buy another system for it to work. :/




I'm gonna do some more research on the roll limit after I get out of class. Thanks for the info guys.


EDIT: According to Vd0g, rolands aren't affected by the roll limit, and that ions are definitely affected by it. In his youtube video, he says to use a madcatz drum brain.
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inv4der  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: The "roll limit" thread? Reply with quote

DarthFizz wrote:
inv4der wrote:
1. Get a PAL player to test and see.

4. iHomer could easily test this, have him try.

6. Find out if it's a resource lag and if so how to mitigate that issue. (This also assumes that PAL would fix it which you admit being unsure of.)


1. What's a PAL player? lol

Someone who has a PAL system and plays RB3? >__>

4. I don't think he can, since I think he's on PAL.

iHomer is Canadian and therefore NTSC. >__>

6. What's a resource lag? I'm assuming that I have to find out if this "resource lag" is the cause of the roll limit.

Have you ever seen an NES game played a little too fast? You know, with tons of stuff on screen and there's slowdown?

Imagine that but the engine slows down from all the venue effects and note tracking just enough that it can't properly register a note being hit. (But not enough for noticeable lag, making it a fine line.) That's one theory, don't quote me on it unless I'm right.


Hobo111 wrote:
some things that I've picked up on from hearing this term tossed around too much

1. iHomer's rolands, as far as I know, isn't affected.

2. It doesn't exist on PS3, don't know about Wii.

4. Definitely game-sided.


1. It could be because he's on PAL and not NTSC. As far as I know, Vd0g tried using rolands and, although they increased the sensitivity of hitting the notes, the roll limit was still technically "there". I could tell in his newer videos.

Canadia is NTSC. >__>

4. Well that changes things a bit. If it's really game-sided, then buying a PAL version should fix it. However, inv4der said in his post that I'd have to buy another system for it to work. :/

Yeah, games are region locked, so a PAL RB3 wouldn't work in your NTSC xbox. Also game-sided doesn't inherently mean PAL will better.


Also, if it's only on IONs then it might even be an ION specific hardware quirk, perhaps combined with my slight lag theory.
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DeftrockX3  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From all the times I've seen Tim stream, I am certain it is an ions issue. I witnessed him choke a ton of songs he's capable of fcing on both PS3 and 360 because of that. I don't know if it applies to stock kits as well, though.
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PuppetMaster9  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just about 100% certain that IONs are the main kits affected. In RB2, I can hit "Death Quota for Purification"'s rolls with virtually 100% consistency. On RB3, it breaks combo constantly. And don't even get me started on the end of "Beast and the Harlot"'s drum solo.

There's a reason why I main RB2's engine when I can.

P.S. To add context for DarthFizz, "PAL" and "NTSC" are encoding systems across different zones of the world. North America has NTSC and Europe has PAL. PAL is known in both the Rock Band and Guitar Hero series for having higher strumming limits in games affected by said bug, as its native state runs slower and has to be artificially sped up to match NTSC (the reason for this is that "PAL" runs in 50hz, while NTSC runs in an optimal 60hz). Because of this, European players usually got infamously fast strumming sequences in RB2 that were impossible to NTSC players ("My Last Words", "Aesthetics of Hate", etc.). The strumming limit was addressed in RB3, but the effect on drums is still in debate.
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DarthFizz  
 




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PuppetMaster9 wrote:
I'm just about 100% certain that IONs are the main kits affected. In RB2, I can hit "Death Quota for Purification"'s rolls with virtually 100% consistency. On RB3, it breaks combo constantly. And don't even get me started on the end of "Beast and the Harlot"'s drum solo.


If what you're saying is true, and Canada has NTSC, then how the hell were carl and gladiators so good when they had ions?
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inv4der  
 




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthFizz wrote:
PuppetMaster9 wrote:
I'm just about 100% certain that IONs are the main kits affected. In RB2, I can hit "Death Quota for Purification"'s rolls with virtually 100% consistency. On RB3, it breaks combo constantly. And don't even get me started on the end of "Beast and the Harlot"'s drum solo.


If what you're saying is true, and Canada has NTSC, then how the hell were carl and gladiators so good when they had ions?


Their old days of glory were RB2.

Are Will and Glad even from Canada? I thought Will lives in California. >__>


Oh actually I just realized, there is literally no way the issue could be the TV since the TV tells the game nothing. It's merely a display. The issue is either input (aka the hardware/IONs, or the software having some odd lag or something.)
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HomelessCarl  
 




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthFizz wrote:
PuppetMaster9 wrote:
I'm just about 100% certain that IONs are the main kits affected. In RB2, I can hit "Death Quota for Purification"'s rolls with virtually 100% consistency. On RB3, it breaks combo constantly. And don't even get me started on the end of "Beast and the Harlot"'s drum solo.


If what you're saying is true, and Canada has NTSC, then how the hell were carl and gladiators so good when they had ions?


as inv4der said, I am from California not Canada. And to my knowledge drum limit usually effects people with IONS on RB3 on XBOX 360 and IN REAL RUNS not practice. It has something to do with the compatibility of the ion drum brain and the engine in rb3, not really sure what the exact cause of it is (whether firmware/hardware/software/expertwin and his retarded butt-buddy guitarherofan101) but those are the main areas afflicted with this treacherous bull-shite.
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DarthFizz  
 




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew carl didn't live in Canada. I was bringing carl up because of when I said "if what you said was true", since he himself had ions. In the "Canada has NTSC" part I was referring to glad.
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JL87  
 




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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are some examples of songs (sections included) with rolls that you think are affected by the roll limit? I'm curious because at one point I thought it was real when I played on a completely stock Ion set, then I got better pads for it (mylar and then mesh) and my opinion changed.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JL87 wrote:
What are some examples of songs (sections included) with rolls that you think are affected by the roll limit? I'm curious because at one point I thought it was real when I played on a completely stock Ion set, then I got better pads for it (mylar and then mesh) and my opinion changed.

"This is Exile", "Conquer All", "California Uber Alles", "Powerslave", "If 6 Was 9", "Iron Maiden (Live)", "Critical Acclaim", "Arcaedion", "I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts"... the list goes on.

It's basically any song that goes beyond around the 15.5 NPS threshold on one pad, especially for at least five notes.
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BeastinIsMyGame  
 




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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

inv4der wrote:
DarthFizz wrote:
If what you're saying is true, and Canada has NTSC, then how the hell were carl and gladiators so good when they had ions?

Their old days of glory were RB2.

However, gladiators did FC We Collide fairly recently on RB3. I don't know if he used ions, (I think it's probable) but there is definitely a roll or two in there that would be subject to the roll limit. Perhaps he knows more and ways around this.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeastinIsMyGame wrote:
However, gladiators did FC We Collide fairly recently on RB3. I don't know if he used ions, (I think it's probable) but there is definitely a roll or two in there that would be subject to the roll limit. Perhaps he knows more and ways around this.

Gladiators plays on PS3, which we already stated is not affected by the roll limit.
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