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Fedora
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 2286
Location: Des Moines, IA
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 Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Alright, one more tip for the old freq/amp players:
Break your habit of staying in a lane until the end of a phrase immediately. If you see something in the next lane, like a powerup or an OD, go for it. The penalty is nowhere near as severe as in games past.
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Yusuke 
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1663
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| Fedora wrote: | Alright, one more tip for the old freq/amp players:
Break your habit of staying in a lane until the end of a phrase immediately. If you see something in the next lane, like a powerup or an OD, go for it. The penalty is nowhere near as severe as in games past. |
This x10000000000000. Especially if you use a Road Rage/Blast Note combo. It essentially lets you get level cap on all but the most retarded charts (like Shout >____>). Once I started doing this I rarely don't gold star songs.
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Barfo
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 2596
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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so i was studying coins and cred and found out a few things.
Coins, as well as overall and genre cred seem to be given as a function of the # of stars achieved on a song, and the difficulty tier (RBBlitz overall difficulty). If you consider the tiers as going from 0-6 then it breaks down liek this:
| Code: | # Coins Amt Cred
Diff Per Star Per Star
---- -------- --------
Tier 0-1: 50 10
Tier 2-4: 75 15
Tier 5-6: 100 20 |
The cred earned in this way goes to your overall Blitz cred, as well as to your cred for the genre of the song. Gold stars counts as 6 stars for purposes of this formula. Ex: if you 5* a rock song that is difficulty tier 4 then you earn 375 coins and 75 Blitz cred and 75 cred in the 'Rock' genre. Individual instrument cred works slightly differently in a way I haven't precisely determined (more discussion on that later in this post).
Whether or not you use powerups is irrelevant to this (unless it affects the star thresholds which i strongly believe it does not). I checked this formula ona dozen or so songs, at least one of each tier and scores from 3*-6*. I didnt check 0, 1, or 2*s yet too look for low exceptions.
One thing to note for songs that you are not playing for the first time is that you will never break even if you use the full complement of powerups (cost 750 coins) as the max coins you can earn is 600 for gold stars on a difficult song. If you are playing mostly easy songs with full powerups you will tend to run more of a coin deficit, even if you are gold starring on every run (450 coins in the red on tier 0,1 and 300 coins in the red on middle difficulty songs). The system to me is somewhat faulty as the revenue and expendatures are not balanced across the difficulty of songs, easy songs have half the earning potential of difficult songs, but they cost the same buy-in costs to go for a great score on. Its made even more problematic that I have noticed little or no additional difficulty in scoring well from a stars perspective on songs tiered in the high difficulties, if anything i think short, slow songs actually might be harder to gold star.
Additionally in terms of playing a song for the first time, I can see basically no cases where it makes sense to use any powerups from a coins perspective, particularly absent any really specific knowledge of the track. At least in my play i can pretty much consistently get between 4.25-4.5 stars on the first play of a song with no powerups, sometimes a bit better, but never enough to actually get a 5*. Obviously the most favourable situation is on a difficult song, so lets consider that. With 4* with no powerups my base earnings are 400x2 = 800 coins. best case i can use powerups to improve that to 6* which yields 600x2 = 1200, or 400 more coins. However, in order to break even i'd have to get this improvement with only one powerup, as any combination of two powerups will actually cost more than you would gain. Based on my experience, I am very skeptical that except in certain cases (which would involve preknowledge of the tracks) could a single powerup, even a potentially very strong one like jackpot or something allow you to get gold stars on a song on first play. Even if you do it say with overdrive or note powerup (im sure its impossible on a track powerup for any normal track) you are only gainign 100 or 150 coins, or barely 15% increase to your base 800 assumed that you can get 100% of the time. On other hand, one powerup pretty much can get you to 5* pretty consistently, however in that case you only gain 200 coins, and thus again you are spending at least as much on the powerup as you would gain from it. Anbd keep in mind that analysis only applies for 5dot or devil tier songs, for others the gained coins are 100/200 or 150/300 for 5*/6* compared to 4*, and the math is even worse.
Also about solos, as far as i can tell its a fixed number of bonus points for each solo based on %age of solo hit, regardless of length (unlike in RB where it was proportional to the number of notes in the solo). 100% on the solo gives 20k points 90-99% gives 10k points, and below that is 5k, and I havent specifically tested for solo %ages under the 80s to know if there are even lower tiers of points.
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Watching her, these things she said / "Time," she cried "failed to wait, this time"
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Last edited by Barfo on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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espher
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 1777
Location: Fredericton, NB, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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I think the coin deficit mechanism is meant to be offset to some extent (edit: if not entirely) by goals. It seems you're supposed to be bleeding a few coins per playthrough on non-new songs and then net gains via goals.
I've just been playing for goal completion and I'm running a positive balance of 53k, though I only had to actively grind one song.
Edit: I do agree that there seems to be no real justification for differing coin amounts based on tiering. I've felt no appreciable difference in star grinding between tiers; if anything, higher tiered songs are easier to grind due to higher note density making maxing multipliers easier (since you don't have to "guess" when notes will drop out) and increasing gains from Road Rage/Blast Note.
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Barfo
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 2596
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| espher wrote: | I think the coin deficit mechanism is meant to be offset to some extent by goals. It seems you're supposed to be bleeding a few coins per playthrough on non-new songs and then net gains via goals.
I've just been playing for goal completion and I'm running a positive balance of 53k, though I only had to actively grind one song. |
What do you mean goals? I couldnt find any goal screen in the game, I was sort of sad actualyl htat when you hit achievements it goes to the regular xbox achievement screens rather than a custom one that shows progress like in beatles or RB3. I surmise these must be somehow related to the facebook version of the game and thus to me they dont really enter into the equation when evaluating the XBLA/PSN version of the game.
I think it makes sense to have it run a deficit for sure, it tends to incentivise playing the song a few times wihtout any powerups to plan out your multi strategy, the thing that seems odd to me is that relative deficit is so much more huge on easy songs than difficult ones. I could play a difficult song one time with no powerups (400 coins) and then have enough coins to essentially break even on that song for 3 consecutive GS plays goign for optimum score (-50 coins overall), or say one 5* followed by a 6* in case of I was trying to get gold stars on the song for first time. Whereas if I was playing an easy song, I would need to 4* the song twice just to almost cover a single 6* play at maximum powerups (-50 coins overall). If i wanted to fuel three max powerups 6* plays of such a song (-450 coins per run), I'd need 7 4* runs on that easy song (or 3.5 runs on some other difficult rated song). Thats a HUGE difference in grind, seven times more grind needed for an easy song compared to a difficult song, and there really doesnt seem to be much reason for the disparity on the basis of a paramter such as difficulty, which to me at least doesnt even seem to correlate well to expected star scores (in fact I probably find it easier to GS most songs the game considers 'difficult' compared to say the 'easy' ones).
To me the sort of relative coin deficit represented above in the case of the difficult song seems like about the right amount, ive been shifting into going for GS on the blitz songs for the achievement, and i tend to want to play about 1-2 times at least on no powerups to work out my multiplier accrual strategy, followed by usually getting the GS on the next run or two on the song.
EDIT: your edit about difficulty being a parameter in this equation went up in between when i was writing this, so it does seem that we pretty much agree on that point.
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Watching her, these things she said / "Time," she cried "failed to wait, this time"
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Hush now / Let it go now / I know it's time to go / Time to let this fall / From my hands |
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espher
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 1777
Location: Fredericton, NB, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, the stock game without Facebook integration does suffer far more than with it, and I wish they'd made it clear beforehand how important the Facebook aspect was for coin generation.
I can see the coin deficit being far more problematic for people who opt out of the Facebook side of things.
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TheLonging
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 4191
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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If you're not using Facebook integration, you will not do so well. I've learned this the hard way after foolishly using powerups all the time early on and running out, then saving up... only to run out.
Powerups do not affect star thresholds. I'd like to point out that, as far as I've seen, blast/flame/runaway/pinball notes are randomly generated, so your experience will be different every time. and I have a suspicious feeling OD might be the same (can't confirm).
The easier songs are definitely more difficult to level up. This is my experience, but songs like Jungle Boogie, One Week, and Metal Health were difficult for me (still are.) The easiest are smack dab in the middle; songs like Moves Like Jagger, Always, etc. can be achieved fairly easy (minus Shout but the 490k cutoff for that is bullshit to begin with). The difficult songs are pretty hard due to the charts themselves; if you can get those and have a reliable powerup set, it should be somewhat easy.
@Barfo: What about stuff like, say, Blitz Mode? I know you're the mechanics guy, but this goes to anyone else; is it worth not being in blitz mode to level up the tracks (like skipping over two or three lanes and missing a bunch of notes to get to it)? As far as I'm aware, it's only really good on songs with high note density where you actually get more points every ten notes (at the cost of the track speed hindering you) versus songs with low note density, where getting those point bonuses are much harder?
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Barfo
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 2596
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| TheLonging wrote: | | @Barfo: What about stuff like, say, Blitz Mode? I know you're the mechanics guy, but this goes to anyone else; is it worth not being in blitz mode to level up the tracks (like skipping over two or three lanes and missing a bunch of notes to get to it)? As far as I'm aware, it's only really good on songs with high note density where you actually get more points every ten notes (at the cost of the track speed hindering you) versus songs with low note density, where getting those point bonuses are much harder? |
At first blush of that question, if the choice is between taking a miss that hurts your ability to hold blitz (since you only get three) or getting in position to hit some notes that will get you a multi up right before a checkpoint then i have to believe that it is always better to get the multi even if you have to miss some notes.
However on more thorough consideration the question is somewhat ill-posed as if you are in the situation where it applies, you are already doing something wrong in that you let yourself have to rush to complete the multiplier, and/or you were in a bad lane to get to where you will have to go to to meet the multiplier. With proper planning id guess that in 100% of those cases you could have approached that section differently in order to not be behind in whatever track that is or at least be adjacent to that track at that poitn when you have to switch. Also note that as far as I can tell you don't ever miss notes for tracks you *leave* so it is possible if you are focused to move over several lanes at once and not make a miss (if you are fast enough mashing down the triggers so that no trailing note hit windows scorll off the screen before you move on from the tracks, but its obv much easier if you can go one track at a time.
Also note that staying in blitz and getting multipliers up arent really at cross purposes. If you are in a section where you need to work on two tracks at once for multipliers up (such as vox with pauses between lines where you also hit guitar notes), then its pretty important to be hitting the notes that you move to just in terms of not letting notes go by unhit in order to get the multi up sooner. So it seems like its really important to switch a lot and developing the skill of being flawless while doing it seems pretty important to me.
As a hardcore HS-using player the blitz is sort of odd, in a way. Obv its much easier to play the game and hit notes (for me) while blitz is active, so its really important for me to not break it due to that reason, and I get bonus points for doing that. On other hand in really tough gtr solos or drum rolls, if i miss a note that throws me out of blitz then I almost always miss a few notes more when I lose HS, and it will be harder to hit notes until i can get blitz back, so its sort of like a failure double whammy. I can see cases where in difficult but doable solos where if i am on two strikes going into it, it would make more sense for me to lose blitz so that i can gain it back with zero strikes before the solo (or before the difficult part of the solo).
In terms of numbers, I think it takes 30 notes to activate blitz, then you earn 100,200,300,400,500 for each groups of 10 notes after that, at which point i think it caps. so basically at fully developed litz you get 50 points extra for each note. If you break blitz then it takes 70 notes to get it back, during which time you get -50 bonus for the first 30 notes, then -40, -30, etc for each set of the next ten. So the actual point cost of dropping blitz (all other thigns being equal) is really only -2500 points, which of course is nice, but is much lower than say chunking a multi early in the song, or even most of the powerups. By end of logn song you might have like easily 15-20x as well as super instrument on your preffered track adn in that case consider that you are say making 300 points per note (20x + super) which makes 50 point bonus seem somewhat unimportant. If you are also using jackpot then it comes to 900 points per note (assuming jackpot stacks with super which i believe it does), though of course anything that would break your blitz streak would also kill your jackpot so maybe thats not a useful comparison.
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Watching her, these things she said / "Time," she cried "failed to wait, this time"
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Hush now / Let it go now / I know it's time to go / Time to let this fall / From my hands |
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Icemage
Joined: 11 May 2008
Posts: 3200
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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@Barfo:
Interesting about the 600-coin maximum. Good to know about the net coin situation for sightreads, though the single case I can think of where you net more than you lose is the handful of single-instrument songs where the difficulty is at least tier 2.
It's impossible to lose the pinball on a single lane and you're guaranteed to gold star. Since Pinball costs 250, as long as the difficulty is 2 or higher, you'll go from 4 stars to 6. On a tier 2 song, that's +150 coins, which is doubled for a sightread for 300 coins, netting you +50.
On a tier 0 or 1 song, on the other hand, you'll still lose 50 coins from using Pinball on a sightread of a single-lane chart.
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Bront
Joined: 09 Oct 2010
Posts: 929
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bclare
Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 6048
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Bront wrote: | | TheLonging wrote: | | I'd like to point out that, as far as I've seen, blast/flame/runaway/pinball notes are randomly generated, so your experience will be different every time. and I have a suspicious feeling OD might be the same (can't confirm). |
Purple notes are randomly generated. OD is generated when OD is present in the song (which means early RB1 songs tend to have more OD phrases than newer songs) |
This is a big deal for some songs. Random blast note locations can sometimes be nice and help you get a level up that you wouldn't have otherwise gotten. I was trying to grind a GS for Death on Two Legs (unsuccessful so far) and whenever there were purples in the intro drum fill that made things a bit easier.
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singemfrc
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 4407
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| bclare wrote: | | Bront wrote: | | TheLonging wrote: | | I'd like to point out that, as far as I've seen, blast/flame/runaway/pinball notes are randomly generated, so your experience will be different every time. and I have a suspicious feeling OD might be the same (can't confirm). |
Purple notes are randomly generated. OD is generated when OD is present in the song (which means early RB1 songs tend to have more OD phrases than newer songs) |
This is a big deal for some songs. Random blast note locations can sometimes be nice and help you get a level up that you wouldn't have otherwise gotten. I was trying to grind a GS for Death on Two Legs (unsuccessful so far) and whenever there were purples in the intro drum fill that made things a bit easier. |
I think some are random and some aren't..I've restarted songs and had purple notes show up exactly in the same spot every time (I know specifically of one annoying purple note in 2112 that I keep instinctively hitting when I dont want to because it blasts a long sustain that would give me far more points)
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JRyder 
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 1274
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| singemfrc wrote: | | (I know specifically of one annoying purple note in 2112 that I keep instinctively hitting when I dont want to because it blasts a long sustain that would give me far more points) |
On this subject specifically, is there a certain multiplier that we can pin down where blasting sustains is just a terrible idea on supers? Without testing, I'd guess somewhere in the 10x-15x range.
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Barfo
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 2596
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Just speaking of sustains in general, has anybody worked out the precise value of sustains compared to single notes. Specifically the quantity im interested in is an estimate (or precise value) for at what note density a string of notes is worth as much as hitting a single sustain note over that length of time (not accoutning for blitz points or hitting multi up targets). Its pretty clear that the ratio of sustain notes/regular notes is worth a lot more than in RB/GH, but i am sort of curious a more precise measure, particularly how it would relate to weighing the points of the post last checkpoint area of a song as it would relate to super instrument choice. I have ideas on how to try and estimate it, but i dont want to duplicate effort if somebody already figured it out
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Watching her, these things she said / "Time," she cried "failed to wait, this time"
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Hush now / Let it go now / I know it's time to go / Time to let this fall / From my hands |
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Chucklestyle
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 657
Location: Wauwatosa, WI
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:51 am Post subject: |
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All I can add to this is that:
a: I've been able to "squeeze" a multiplier if the note required to increase it is exactly on the checkpoint by hitting it early.
b: road rage used effectively can actually hit notes behind a checkpoint, effectively pulling them back into the current checkpoint and increasing your multiplier on the current section. A couple of times I've actually been able to increase multiplier beyond what would be possible in certain sections. Handy for getting your multiplier up early on or grabbing a bit of extra juice towards one on a sparse section.
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