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xX666Xx
Joined: 06 Nov 2009 Posts: 51
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Might get this for SAF. |
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JTHomeslice
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Posts: 1100
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Mystakin wrote: | JTHomeslice wrote: | Something worth noting in all the protar discussion going on, looking at the official videos on their Vevo channel, Your Betrayal has over 11 million views while Tears Don't Fall has about 41 million views. (And for shits and giggles, Scream Aim Fire has over 15 million views) I've always seen Tears Don't Fall as their most popular song, Billboard charts or not. But as some of y'all said, there are lots of factors that go into their protar choices. Just something I found interesting. |
Tears Don't Fall is the most popular song among BFMV fans, not the mainstream. Kind of like A Little Piece of Heaven by A7X. Bat Country has 15 mil views LESS than Piece of Heaven... but I don't think anyone could argue against Bat Country being the bigger, more popular song.
I'd wager Tears was the runner up for Pro, there's certainly good reason for it to have the upgrade and I was surprised when it didn't have it. There's also good reason for Your Betrayal, though. |
I got you. Fair points all around. _________________
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toymachine
Joined: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 9629 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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Mystakin wrote: |
Slayer: Raining Blood --- This is the only Slayer song anyone knows.. |
While I don't agree with this I also realize not everyone sees Slayer for anything other than the songs in music games or the ad-nauseum statement of Kerry King being a shitty guitarist that doesn't know what he's doing. _________________
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Mystakin
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 1152 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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toymachine wrote: | Mystakin wrote: |
Slayer: Raining Blood --- This is the only Slayer song anyone knows.. |
While I don't agree with this I also realize not everyone sees Slayer for anything other than the songs in music games or the ad-nauseum statement of Kerry King being a shitty guitarist that doesn't know what he's doing. |
And Vice City... which had (surprise, surprise) Raining Blood on the soundtrack. There's an argument to be made that people know Angel of Death, but RaBl is certainly more well known than Seasons or South of Heaven _________________
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Blackbart
Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 134
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Tears don't fall is a guilty pleasure of mine, I will be buying this pack for some fun drums. _________________
But it was so artistically done... |
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Lowlander2
Joined: 11 Feb 2012 Posts: 239 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:13 am Post subject: |
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>2012
>Thinking Billboard can be used to judge popularity all on its own, especially in songs over 20 years old
>Thinking popularity is the best reason to pick a Pro upgrade |
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machetemonkey
Joined: 02 Feb 2008 Posts: 3043 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Lowlander2 wrote: | >2012
>Thinking Billboard can be used to judge popularity all on its own, especially in songs over 20 years old
>Thinking popularity is the best reason to pick a Pro upgrade |
Burden of proof is on you. People using Billboard as a judgement of popularity are at least /trying/ to judge popularity.
Also, nobody is arguing that popularity is the "best" reason to pick a pro upgrade. If you had followed the whole argument, it started with "Harmonix always picks easy songs for pro upgrades because they're lazy." We've been arguing that Harmonix likely uses popularity as a large factor in determining pro upgrades because they need to turn a profit on the project, and that simple songs happen to often be the most popular. |
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Lowlander2
Joined: 11 Feb 2012 Posts: 239 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:47 am Post subject: |
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I'm not even sure HMX should be really considering "most popular", however, if the other songs that could be eligible are at least reasonably popular and are better for the game.
Let's take Paramore, for one. The Only Exception is arguably the most popular song in the pack(arguably), but it's not as if Ignorance or Brick By Boring Brick are slouches either, and I argue that The Only Exception does not lead in popularity by a large enough margin to supersede the fact that the other two songs would have easily been better to play, and suggesting that giving the upgrade to either of the other two songs would have cut into their profits by a measurable amount is GNF levels of fanboyitude.
Now I'm not going to say every choice they make is bad, especially, as Mystakin says, not the week after Rime came out, and I'm not sure if the BFMV choice is bad (although it's better than Scream Aim Fire, the Mustang cannot do alt-strums), but don't use the one factor as the sole justification, especially if it's popularity on an instrument that is not going to be popular no matter what. |
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Nubnut
Joined: 07 Jun 2008 Posts: 2078 Location: Denver, CO
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Meh pass week for me all around. At least I got my maiden. _________________
1st place on 8 GH:WoR songs on Expert+ drums! (well, at least for a couple days).
XBL Gamertag: Gavesit
Add me if you wanna play RB 3, GH:WoR, GTA IV, Halo Reach, Left 4 Dead etc. etc.
"THERE IS A DREAM I AM LIVING
THERE IS A LIFE I AM DREAMING OF" |
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Mystakin
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 1152 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Lowlander2 wrote: | >2012
>Thinking Billboard can be used to judge popularity all on its own, especially in songs over 20 years old
>Thinking popularity is the best reason to pick a Pro upgrade |
>2012
>using implication tags on anything other than a chan board.
Quote: | I'm not even sure HMX should be really considering "most popular", however, if the other songs that could be eligible are at least reasonably popular and are better for the game. |
They want the most popular choice because it has the largest selling potential. The more a song with a Pro Upgrade sells, the larger the audience for the Pro Upgrade becomes.
Quote: | Let's take Paramore, for one. The Only Exception is arguably the most popular song in the pack(arguably) |
Arguable by what standards? You denounce Billboard but offer no alternative. You can't make claims wildly without supporting them, especially when refuting a claim that HAS support.
Quote: | but it's not as if Ignorance or Brick By Boring Brick are slouches either, and I argue that The Only Exception does not lead in popularity by a large enough margin to supersede the fact that the other two songs would have easily been better to play, and suggesting that giving the upgrade to either of the other two songs would have cut into their profits by a measurable amount is GNF levels of fanboyitude. |
The 3 songs have sold roughly equal up to now, but we can't exactly look into the future to decide what gets a Pro upgrade. I also stated that choosing easier songs helps balance out the DLC library more. People who aren't very good at Pro Guitar still deserve DLC at their level. The Only Exception is likely an example of this.
Quote: | but don't use the one factor as the sole justification, especially if it's popularity on an instrument that is not going to be popular no matter what. |
I never did. I used it as primary justification, with balancing the DLC library as a follow-up. There's obviously no single factor that decides any kind of DLC.
All of that aside, did you SEE my post where I laid out how 7 or 8 of the last 10 Pro Upgrades were for the highest charting song that week? Whether or not you think it's a smart idea, the trend is obviously there. If they aren't using charting positions explicitly, they're using a metric that mirrors it. _________________
Last edited by Mystakin on Sat May 26, 2012 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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b.vicious
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 Posts: 2075 Location: Internet
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 8:35 am Post subject: |
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I fucking love Bullet For My Valentine. I agree that their albums have gotten progressively more meh since their first, but I'm excited even though I haven't touched rock band in forever.
Once I decide to pick Rock Band up again, I'll be downloading these in a heartbeat.
I will continue to wish for Hearts Burst Into Fire, as that is my favorite song by them.
If this 3 pack was my decision, and I had to choose one song from each album, I'd choose :
The Poison
Hearts Burst Into Fire
Begging For Mercy _________________
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Lowlander2
Joined: 11 Feb 2012 Posts: 239 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Mystakin wrote: | Lowlander2 wrote: | >2012
>Thinking Billboard can be used to judge popularity all on its own, especially in songs over 20 years old
>Thinking popularity is the best reason to pick a Pro upgrade |
>2012
>using implication tags on anything other than a chan board. |
Tch, alright.
Mystakin wrote: | Lowlander2 wrote: | I'm not even sure HMX should be really considering "most popular", however, if the other songs that could be eligible are at least reasonably popular and are better for the game. |
They want the most popular choice because it has the largest selling potential. The more a song with a Pro Upgrade sells, the larger the audience for the Pro Upgrade becomes. |
Yeah, don't fool yourself. The audience is small, and at this point, there is no way that's going to change. Not with one particular Pro choice, not with a string of them, nothing. I want it to be popular, then we can start getting more, but simply catering to as many people as possible when the possibilities aren't exactly brimming is a little short-sighted if you ask me.
Mystakin wrote: | Lowlander2 wrote: | Let's take Paramore, for one. The Only Exception is arguably the most popular song in the pack(arguably) |
Arguable by what standards? You denounce Billboard but offer no alternative. You can't make claims wildly without supporting them, especially when refuting a claim that HAS support. |
I suppose I don't have much cause here save for the old hand of "I've never heard of it". We Belong vs. Love Is A Battlefield would be a better example in that regard.
Despite We Belong being almost as high on Billboard as Love Is A Battlefield at the time, only one of the two has actually stood the test of time, being referenced, covered, karaoked and generally still receiving airplay to this day. Love Is A Battlefield is easily the more popular song, I don't care what you say. It may have been as popular once, but it's certainly more popular now.
Mystakin wrote: | Lowlander2 wrote: | but it's not as if Ignorance or Brick By Boring Brick are slouches either, and I argue that The Only Exception does not lead in popularity by a large enough margin to supersede the fact that the other two songs would have easily been better to play, and suggesting that giving the upgrade to either of the other two songs would have cut into their profits by a measurable amount is GNF levels of fanboyitude. |
The 3 songs have sold roughly equal up to now, but we can't exactly look into the future to decide what gets a Pro upgrade. I also stated that choosing easier songs helps balance out the DLC library more. People who aren't very good at Pro Guitar still deserve DLC at their level. The Only Exception is likely an example of this. |
But what of when that overshadows almost any other facet? When trying to pick the simplest one for the sake of consumers gets in the way of this little thing called fun, and also variety? It goes both ways too, mind. I resented Raining Blood getting an upgrade because it's virtually unplayable in its state.
Mystakin wrote: | Lowlander2 wrote: | but don't use the one factor as the sole justification, especially if it's popularity on an instrument that is not going to be popular no matter what. |
I never did. I used it as primary justification, with balancing the DLC library as a follow-up.
All of that aside, did you SEE my post where I laid out how 7 or 8 of the last 10 Pro Upgrades were for the highest charting song that week? Whether or not you think it's a smart idea, the trend is obviously there. If they aren't using charting positions explicitly, they're using a metric that mirrors it. |
I know. All too well...
This isn't simply a case of "wah I'm not getting what I want." It just seems to me from where I'm standing that as much as Harmonix says they have a multitude of factors in choosing an upgrade, it seems as if there's only one, and that while they think it makes sense from a business standpoint, it doesn't. They're seemingly shooting for popularity on a mode which isn't very popular, and likely never will be.
I'm not saying that they have to pick the most indie or the hardest or the most complex every time, either, but for as much as they say the system is varied, you can see the choices coming a mile away, and it's absolutely not a good thing in this case. |
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Mystakin
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 1152 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Yeah, don't fool yourself. The audience is small, and at this point, there is no way that's going to change. Not with one particular Pro choice, not with a string of them, nothing. I want it to be popular, then we can start getting more, but simply catering to as many people as possible when the possibilities aren't exactly brimming is a little short-sighted if you ask me. |
Umm... so because the audience is small they SHOULDN'T try to reach the most of that small audience as possible? If song A sells 1,000 copies more than Song B, then A was a better candidate for a Pro Upgrade because it's more likely to be owned by someone who HAS a Pro Guitar. Doesn't matter if the song sold 51,000 copies or 1,050... the song that sells the most that week should have the upgrade if HMX is trying to sell the most upgrades.
Quote: | Despite We Belong being almost as high on Billboard as Love Is A Battlefield at the time, only one of the two has actually stood the test of time, being referenced, covered, karaoked and generally still receiving airplay to this day. Love Is A Battlefield is easily the more popular song, I don't care what you say. It may have been as popular once, but it's certainly more popular now. |
We Belong was in Talladega Nights, your argument is invalid. Joking aside, Love is a Battlefield was more popular than We Belong back then, as I said. Harmonix chose to go with the less popular track that week for some reason, which I would wager was to appease Pro Guitar players that are still inexperienced.
Quote: | But what of when that overshadows almost any other facet? When trying to pick the simplest one for the sake of consumers gets in the way of this little thing called fun, and also variety? It goes both ways too, mind. I resented Raining Blood getting an upgrade because it's virtually unplayable in its state. |
Harmonix needs to make money on Pro Upgrades for them to continue. Variety don't matter if the upgrades aren't selling. Most people will purchase songs and upgrades for songs they know because those are the songs they want to learn.
Additionally, here's some numbers for you.
17 - Songs 3 dots and above on Pro Guitar since Last November
4 - Songs 3 dots on Pro Guitar since Last November
17 - Songs below 3 dots on Pro Guitar since Last November
Admittedly, a lot of the below 3-dots have been this year, but late last year had a ton of complex, difficult songs on Pro Guitar. Any imbalance is negligible if not nonexistent. If anything, it's in favor of the more difficult songs because they contain longer tracks like On the Backs of Angels, TTFAF, 2112, and Rime of the Ancient Mariner.
Quote: | This isn't simply a case of "wah I'm not getting what I want." It just seems to me from where I'm standing that as much as Harmonix says they have a multitude of factors in choosing an upgrade, it seems as if there's only one, and that while they think it makes sense from a business standpoint, it doesn't. They're seemingly shooting for popularity on a mode which isn't very popular, and likely never will be. |
Popularity seeps into everything. If you think the only people playing Pro Guitar is Scorehero & fellow hardcores, you're fooling yourself. The mainstream drives that market, just as they drive Rock Band Music Store's market.
What makes me think that? For 360, Clocks, Yellow (y'know, Coldplay) and How You Remind Me all have 400+ scores recorded for Pro Guitar on rockband.com. On the Backs of Angels, on the other hand... doesn't have above 170 and none of the Rush tracks are above 200.
Or we could just look at one week. I've Seen All Good People: roughly 200. Owner of a Lonely Heart: 380+.
Quote: | I'm not saying that they have to pick the most indie or the hardest or the most complex every time, either, but for as much as they say the system is varied, you can see the choices coming a mile away, and it's absolutely not a good thing in this case. |
Predictability doesn't mean it's bad, it just means it's logical. _________________
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Lowlander2
Joined: 11 Feb 2012 Posts: 239 Location: Australia
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:43 am Post subject: |
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You bring up some very logical and agreeable points, and you didn't have to resort to many rhetorical questions to do it. So good job!
I'll admit that, looking back, the golden opportunities to have great upgrades has been slim, but I just wish HMX didn't throughtout this year merely point their finger at the most popular song and go "ah, that one." Hell, in one case, doing that actively got in the way of the 5 button chart, of which there are a far greater amount of players.
Really, as long as they don't do the absolute worst for each week, I don't complain too much. |
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dragoninforcer
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 1457 Location: Long Island
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'll get (Ice) Cream Aim Fire, but that's it. |
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