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mazegeek999PSN
Joined: 23 Jul 2012 Posts: 460
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:35 am Post subject: |
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CyclopsDragon wrote: | Well, let's just say for a moment that Solo 2D is the most difficult broken section in Chiasm. While the speed of the roll is a problem (and Chiasm's Solo 2D roll is at least as fast as SV), I think that the biggest problem is the concentration of the kicks, along with the weird division of them. In Chiasm, both the kicks and the rolls are, individually, very simple rhythms. It's a weird polyrhythm when you put them together, but they're consistent. As well, the kicks are the exact same speed for the entirety of the fill. In Sinner's Vengeance, however, the kicks aren't spaced perfectly evenly. Starting from the green before the kicks, the spacing is GOGOG G GOGOG G GOGOG G (GO). Not only is this much harder to discern and play precisely at high speeds, but there's no easy way to keep on beat with it, because this is a rubato fill, not a section with an obvious beat. While Chiasm's broken sections are mainly a matter of muscle memory and limb independence with some precision (at least, that's how I see it), Sinner's Vengeance is an issue of such incredible precision that I would personally say it really does beat out Chiasm in terms of how much the broken fills affect its FC difficulty. |
Well first of all I completely agree that the Solo 2D fill is easier than SV Intro B. I noticed (and maybe you saw this when you notated the roll, I don't know) that the pads and the kicks are polyrhythms. Both parts are two different, but consistent, rhythms. The pads are quintuplets the whole time, which yes, since they are grouped in five it can be annoying to keep time sometimes. The kicks are like this:
---O|O-OO-OO-|O
(This is from a visual standpoint, although I don't see a better way to figure this out since we can't delete the green notes and look at the kicks if that makes sense.)
So it looks like the kicks just do OO- etc, 2 kicks and a rest a few times. These are two 16th notes with a 16th rest. I'm pretty sure this is correct because of the way the bar lines on the game are.
By the way, this theory should then prove that the second kick is actually on-beat with the green (just figured this out myself). This is because since the rolls are straight quintuplets, and are on-beat on the bar lines, since the 2nd kick is also on-beat, there are only five, not six, broken kicks. Sounds silly but it makes a difference.
So you're saying that the kicks aren't exactly even, and yeah, that's the annoying part. Playing quintuplets versus kicks on a speed-up isn't easy by any means. I do think muscle memory is involved in this; not completely, but it can help. Noting that the rolls are straight quints and the kicks have their own rhythm it would make sense to say that if your hands had muscle memory for the speed of the quints you could just think about the kicks, giving you an FC.
Of course, it's not that simple, but I'm sure there is some muscle memory involved on those rolls.
So basically, Chiasm and SV fills are both consistent polyrhythms. SV is more complex, but based on the fact that it's actually a polyrhythm and not a random clutter of kick notes, I wouldn't say it's harder. _________________
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BeastinIsMyGame
Joined: 14 Feb 2012 Posts: 91
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:45 am Post subject: |
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In all fairness, the SV intro is MUCH harder than it looks, and it even looks impossible. While the theory to hitting may seem practical, the fact of the matter is putting it into practice is something only the highly elite would ever be able to pull off (and as of right now, only Homer). I could see myself practicing this a thousand different ways and not getting anywhere. I consider it almost a miracle it was FCed at all to be honest.
At the end of the day, Homer should have the last say in this matter anyhow; he's the only one who's FCed both sections and thus we should lend him the highest amount of credibility regarding judging difficulty. |
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mazegeek999PSN
Joined: 23 Jul 2012 Posts: 460
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:51 am Post subject: |
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BeastinIsMyGame wrote: | In all fairness, the SV intro is MUCH harder than it looks, and it even looks impossible. While the theory to hitting may seem practical, the fact of the matter is putting it into practice is something only the highly elite would ever be able to pull off (and as of right now, only Homer). I could see myself practicing this a thousand different ways and not getting anywhere. I consider it almost a miracle it was FCed at all to be honest.
At the end of the day, Homer should have the last say in this matter anyhow; he's the only one who's FCed both sections and thus we should lend him the highest amount of credibility regarding judging difficulty. |
You're right; his opinion is important (that is if he's providing the right reasons. Most of the stuff I hear is just from him saying how fast the roll is and that it's just harder for him to hit that section than Chiasm sections). However, I was just talking to him and he never realized this pattern either. So maybe if he practices the section (he refuses to since it's a stupid section which is understandable) he can build muscle memory for the quints and go from there.
What I am saying is he didn't understand the "math" behind the SV intro. Chiasm is much more easy to see, and he saw that, but he didn't see the SV intro. Although, no one did. I'm not trying to imply that I know better about drums than Carson (I may come off as a little mean when I say that "Carson didn't see that but I did"); it's just that he has only played the section with a thought in mind of it being "random." It is, in fact, not random, which hasn't really been discovered, so it might be of good use to try next time he plays the section. _________________
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iHomer
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 Posts: 935 Location: Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:58 am Post subject: |
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mazegeek999PSN wrote: | You're right; his opinion is important (that is if he's providing the right reasons. Most of the stuff I hear is just from him saying how fast the roll is and that it's just harder for him to hit that section than Chiasm sections). However, I was just talking to him and he never realized this pattern either. So maybe if he practices the section (he refuses to since it's a stupid section which is understandable) he can build muscle memory for the quints and go from there.
What I am saying is he didn't understand the "math" behind the SV intro. Chiasm is much more easy to see, and he saw that, but he didn't see the SV intro. Although, no one did. I'm not trying to imply that I know better about drums than Carson (I may come off as a little mean when I say that "Carson didn't see that but I did"); it's just that he has only played the section with a thought in mind of it being "random." It is, in fact, not random, which hasn't really been discovered, so it might be of good use to try next time he plays the section. |
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I never said any of that, and like I said, I won't discuss it with you any further since I've made everything very clear in previous posts, and you have not played either song. _________________
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mazegeek999PSN
Joined: 23 Jul 2012 Posts: 460
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:12 am Post subject: |
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iHomer wrote: | mazegeek999PSN wrote: | You're right; his opinion is important (that is if he's providing the right reasons. Most of the stuff I hear is just from him saying how fast the roll is and that it's just harder for him to hit that section than Chiasm sections). However, I was just talking to him and he never realized this pattern either. So maybe if he practices the section (he refuses to since it's a stupid section which is understandable) he can build muscle memory for the quints and go from there.
What I am saying is he didn't understand the "math" behind the SV intro. Chiasm is much more easy to see, and he saw that, but he didn't see the SV intro. Although, no one did. I'm not trying to imply that I know better about drums than Carson (I may come off as a little mean when I say that "Carson didn't see that but I did"); it's just that he has only played the section with a thought in mind of it being "random." It is, in fact, not random, which hasn't really been discovered, so it might be of good use to try next time he plays the section. |
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I never said any of that, and like I said, I won't discuss it with you any further since I've made everything very clear in previous posts, and you have not played either song. |
I could pull quotes out of Skype if you really wanted me to; you know I have the time to do that. You didn't blatantly say everything though; some of it was implied. However (for example) you did say that you believe the kicks are still random, and I asked you why but you kept ignoring me.
Look, I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, just a debate (a non-"mad" (for a lack of a better word) argument). It just surprises me that many people think that Chiasm is easier than SV, and I'm trying to explain to people my logic while listening to others' opinions and taking them into consideration. _________________
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BeastinIsMyGame
Joined: 14 Feb 2012 Posts: 91
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:33 am Post subject: |
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I'd switch Powerslave and I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts, but that's just my take on the outros. And when did Cool Concoction move so far down? Last time I checked that was hard as hell, at least as difficult as Stabbing to Purge Dissimulation in my opinion. |
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CyclopsDragon
Joined: 15 May 2009 Posts: 155 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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mazegeek999PSN wrote: | The pads are quintuplets the whole time, which yes, since they are grouped in five it can be annoying to keep time sometimes. |
That's not the main reason why it's difficult to keep time. It's the slowdown at the beginning of the fill. Because there's a much slower tempo at the beginning of the fill, the player doesn't have an immediate indication of the tempo of the green roll and the kicks.
mazegeek999PSN wrote: | By the way, this theory should then prove that the second kick is actually on-beat with the green (just figured this out myself). This is because since the rolls are straight quintuplets, and are on-beat on the bar lines, since the 2nd kick is also on-beat, there are only five, not six, broken kicks. Sounds silly but it makes a difference. |
Yeah, I feel like it doesn't really affect it that much. Sure, it's one less broken kick, but at that speed, are you really going to be able to concentrate on that one kick being at the same time as a pad hit?
mazegeek999PSN wrote: | Noting that the rolls are straight quints and the kicks have their own rhythm it would make sense to say that if your hands had muscle memory for the speed of the quints you could just think about the kicks, giving you an FC.
Of course, it's not that simple, but I'm sure there is some muscle memory involved on those rolls. |
You basically said what I was going to say. As a real drummer, I have no problem playing a bunch of different polyrhythms, but when I take those polyrhythms into Rock Band, the engine makes it damn near impossible, even with the muscle memory. Realistically, the more complicated polyrhythms are exponentially more difficult than the others, and while SV does have a discernible pattern, that doesn't change the fact that the kicks still aren't evenly spaced. It's not exactly easy to do fast double kicks consistently precisely compared to a straight rhythm. _________________
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mazegeek999PSN
Joined: 23 Jul 2012 Posts: 460
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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CyclopsDragon wrote: | mazegeek999PSN wrote: | The pads are quintuplets the whole time, which yes, since they are grouped in five it can be annoying to keep time sometimes. |
That's not the main reason why it's difficult to keep time. It's the slowdown at the beginning of the fill. Because there's a much slower tempo at the beginning of the fill, the player doesn't have an immediate indication of the tempo of the green roll and the kicks. |
Right, my theory though is that muscle memory can help with the slowdown if someone practices the fill enough (shouldn't take more than an hour or so to have the muscle memory for that part).
And this is just a theory, but with my experiences of speedups and slowdowns on pro keys it doesn't take long to gain muscle memory. Of course I doubt there will be someone that can FC those rolls every single time, but they can be somewhat consistent at them (up to the kicks).
CyclopsDragon wrote: | mazegeek999PSN wrote: | By the way, this theory should then prove that the second kick is actually on-beat with the green (just figured this out myself). This is because since the rolls are straight quintuplets, and are on-beat on the bar lines, since the 2nd kick is also on-beat, there are only five, not six, broken kicks. Sounds silly but it makes a difference. |
Yeah, I feel like it doesn't really affect it that much. Sure, it's one less broken kick, but at that speed, are you really going to be able to concentrate on that one kick being at the same time as a pad hit? |
The way I see it, the kicks are the only parts in the song that make the song #2. There are less than 10 broken kicks in the whole song I believe, so I think every kick makes some difference, at least a few spots. If there were no kicks, the song wouldn't even be in the top 100 or 200. So the kicks make a difference, I just can't really figure out exactly how much of a difference.
Also, I believe you can concentrate on hitting both at the same time. You would just have to figure out which hand goes on the bar line for that kick hit, then hit the kick at the same time. Also I think for the quints a good way to hit them would be to watch the bar lines and play in groups of five.
CyclopsDragon wrote: | mazegeek999PSN wrote: | Noting that the rolls are straight quints and the kicks have their own rhythm it would make sense to say that if your hands had muscle memory for the speed of the quints you could just think about the kicks, giving you an FC.
Of course, it's not that simple, but I'm sure there is some muscle memory involved on those rolls. |
You basically said what I was going to say. As a real drummer, I have no problem playing a bunch of different polyrhythms, but when I take those polyrhythms into Rock Band, the engine makes it damn near impossible, even with the muscle memory. Realistically, the more complicated polyrhythms are exponentially more difficult than the others, and while SV does have a discernible pattern, that doesn't change the fact that the kicks still aren't evenly spaced. It's not exactly easy to do fast double kicks consistently precisely compared to a straight rhythm. |
You're right, and I do believe that the SV intro is harder than that fill in Chiasm (or any of the fills for that matter). I would say both fills are luck-based though. It is kind of hard to judge them when I can't play them since I'm on PS3 without drums (just curious, have you played them before?). And I wouldn't really say that Chiasm's fills are "straight rhythms." The kicks and the pads are consistent in both songs, except in SV there are rests in between the kicks, which yes, does make them harder. I just can't say for sure that those kicks beat out all of Chiasm's stuff. _________________
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CyclopsDragon
Joined: 15 May 2009 Posts: 155 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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mazegeek999PSN wrote: | Right, my theory though is that muscle memory can help with the slowdown if someone practices the fill enough (shouldn't take more than an hour or so to have the muscle memory for that part). |
I think you may be overestimating muscle memory just a bit. Sure, it'll help quite a bit, but the kind of tremendous precision that would be required would take much longer than an hour to build up.
mazegeek999PSN wrote: | The way I see it, the kicks are the only parts in the song that make the song #2. There are less than 10 broken kicks in the whole song I believe, so I think every kick makes some difference, at least a few spots. If there were no kicks, the song wouldn't even be in the top 100 or 200. So the kicks make a difference, I just can't really figure out exactly how much of a difference. |
Well, let's look at it this way. Chiasm has only one broken kick that's during a high-speed, that being the one during the 32nd roll in Solo 2D, whereas SV has 5, as well as the one that you have to concentrate on not being broken. These five kicks are exponentially more difficult than the kicks in slower rolls, which many people believe more than makes up for the standard difficulty in FCing Chiasm.
mazegeek999PSN wrote: | Also, I believe you can concentrate on hitting both at the same time. You would just have to figure out which hand goes on the bar line for that kick hit, then hit the kick at the same time. Also I think for the quints a good way to hit them would be to watch the bar lines and play in groups of five. |
Again, much easier said than done. The 5:4 polyrhythm is much more awkward than the 4:3 polyrhythm, and it's made even more awkward by the fact that 1/3 of the 4s are missing. The kicks are at or just under 14NPS, while the rolls are at or just above 17NPS. At this kind of speed, precision in polyrhythms is incredibly difficult. Hell, We are the Nightmare's polyrhythms are incredibly difficult, and those kicks aren't even a constant 7NPS.
mazegeek999PSN wrote: | You're right, and I do believe that the SV intro is harder than that fill in Chiasm (or any of the fills for that matter). I would say both fills are luck-based though. It is kind of hard to judge them when I can't play them since I'm on PS3 without drums (just curious, have you played them before?). And I wouldn't really say that Chiasm's fills are "straight rhythms." The kicks and the pads are consistent in both songs, except in SV there are rests in between the kicks, which yes, does make them harder. I just can't say for sure that those kicks beat out all of Chiasm's stuff. |
While it's true that I haven't played Chiasm or SV (Wii), I have played other songs with broken rhythms (He Sleeps in a Grove, Tastes Like Kevin Bacon, We are the Nightmare, to name a few), and while I know you're probably sick of seeing this word, even a slight change in how fast the broken bit is makes it exponentially harder or easier. I have actually tried playing the Chiasm Solo 2D fill just on my kit, and it took me 5 or 10 minutes to be able to keep the bass going during the fill. While I've already said that's not even close to what you need to hit a broken fill, I don't even know where to start with SV. I guess what I'm getting at is that it's much easier to keep rhythm with constant bass than it is when there are gaps, and that's one of the other factors that makes SV's fill so hard. _________________
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iHomer
Joined: 10 Feb 2008 Posts: 935 Location: Vaughan, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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BeastinIsMyGame wrote: | I'd switch Powerslave and I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts, but that's just my take on the outros. And when did Cool Concoction move so far down? Last time I checked that was hard as hell, at least as difficult as Stabbing to Purge Dissimulation in my opinion. |
Not sure about Powerslave and IMNTBT, but I moved CC up a bit. _________________
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FingerQuick
Joined: 14 Jan 2009 Posts: 2386 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Polly might be a great contender for the #1 spot!
[11:12:24 PM] Isaac Hiller: polly is 10x harder than your treachery! :P!!!
[11:12:38 PM] Jack (kingyummy3): but isaac
[11:12:43 PM] Jack (kingyummy3): her majesty is the hardest of all
[11:13:03 PM] Isaac Hiller: no fuck u! thats EzzzzY
[11:13:21 PM] Carson (iHomer x360a): well actually i think polly may be harder
[11:13:39 PM] Carson (iHomer x360a): Her Majesty is right at the start, and can really catch you off guard. 8)
[11:13:51 PM] Carson (iHomer x360a): Plus, you have to deal with Beatles calibration.
[11:14:00 PM | Edited 11:14:02 PM] Mitch (Moochalacho): polly and treachery are of equal difficulties because they both have notes
[11:14:03 PM] Nick Bibeau (Deceased): polly for #1
[11:14:10 PM] Carson (iHomer x360a): Polly on the other hand, is pretty easy since a hi-hat pedal can be used to cheat the game.
[11:14:36 PM] Jack (kingyummy3): mitch, that is a compelling point
please take into consideration! _________________
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Grand-master
Joined: 13 Jan 2010 Posts: 852 Location: Oshawa, ON
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emsegs
Joined: 17 Jan 2012 Posts: 269
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Polly for #1 _________________
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uSound
Joined: 24 May 2009 Posts: 1180 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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FingerQuick wrote: | [11:14:00 PM | Edited 11:14:02 PM] Mitch (Moochalacho): polly and treachery are of equal difficulties because they both have notes |
my sides |
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mazegeek999PSN
Joined: 23 Jul 2012 Posts: 460
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Where do you guys think Synesthesia should go on the list?
I'd say #10; that guitar solo section is definitely a mess. I haven't played the chart (it's not on PS3 yet), but most of the guitar solo seems learnable pretty easily and muscle memory can take over. However, I see a pretty weird part at 4:16 in this video, which can be learned but I'm sure it would take more practice and luck to hit it. That's not saying I think the guitar solo is easy or anything though; I put it at #10 for a reason. I do think that it can be learned, though.
The drum solo doesn't look as bad as the guitar solo. You only need to do one double left it seems, but the last RRYYBBGG part is kind of hard on the kit (I've tried it, pretty fast to move on all four drums). I think that if someone made it past the guitar solo in Synesthesia, they would only choke a few times in the drum solo before FCing.
What do you guys think? _________________
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