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gladiators16
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
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Location: Canada
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 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:28 am Post subject: Breakdown of the 6 Un-FCd Drum Songs - Homecoming FC (Pro) |
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**READ ALL OF THIS (ESPECIALLY THE RULES) BEFORE SCROLLING DOWN/POSTING PLEASE**
Rules updated last - 7/28/09
1) No postwhoring. This is a general technique discussion thread. As such, it is a place where you can discuss technique, discussion of song stats, ways to format the list better, etc. This thread is not a place to put one-word, Youtube-style comments. Post such as these will be deleted without warning.
This thread is also not an accomplishment thread. If you want to congratulate someone for their FC, please do so in their thread in the Accomplishments forum. Posts that only congratulate people will be deleted without warning.
2) If a song hasn't been FC'd yet and you are wondering why not, read the OP. Many have gone to great lengths and in great detail to thoroughly explain why a song is so difficult to FC. If you post asking this, it will be deleted without warning.
3) Do not argue about whether a song is impossible or not to FC. It is pointless speculation. Posts asking this will be deleted without warning.
4) Flaming will not be tolerated. Anyone who flames someone will be temporarily or permanently banned from the forums.
5) DO NOT DISCUSS BANNED USERS. They are banned for a reason and have no place in a thread on ScoreHero.
This thread is on its last life. Use this thread for its intended purpose and follow the rules or the thread will be closed and will not be recreated again.
Another very important note:
| BobDole wrote: | | Don't try to cheat the system by waiting until the song makes the list to FC it. You should be trying to FC the songs as quickly as possible instead. When it comes almost time for a song to make the list, you should work HARDER at it to try to keep it off the list; not work less at it to try to get it on the list. |
One more thing: Getting the first FC of a song by skipping fills, though by definition it is an FC, is frowned upon. Please try to use optimal paths.
EDIT 7/28/09: Due to the ongoing discussion relating to the definition of a drum FC, there will be THREE lists in this post; one will list the songs FC'd using the optimal (or natural) path, the second will list all the songs FC'd by skipping fills, and the third will list the songs re-FCd with the optimal path after the first FC was bootlegged. This will be implemented immediately due to the recent controversial Visions drum FC where fills were skipped.
NOTE: "Miss paths" may produce the optimal score, but they are NOT FC's!
**THANK YOU.**
Another thing: I'll totally be updating this thread with new DLC as it comes in, but as a rule of thumb, I'll give the song two weeks to be FCd before adding it to the list. By then, hopefully, an FCable song will be FCd. Clearly, I don't want any moderately difficult songs to be added to the list, just because it hasn't been available long enough for people to practice it.
To help out with the descriptions, I added chart and Youtube links of the songs. Thank me later for the views  .
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THE WIKI, which actively keeps track of EVERY un-FC'd drum song before it hits the three week mark of availability. Thanks to Mischlings for creating the page!
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Songs FC'd with the optimal path since this thread started (1/27/09):
1. This Calling- bLiNdz0r
2. Sin Wagon- ES942
3. Limelight (Original Version)- ES942
4. Red Devil- SubIime
5. Forever- kknyrass
6. That's When I Reach For My Revolver- ixf34rlessxi
7. Mica- Angels2003
8. Same Ol' Situation (S.O.S.)- GQD2008
9. No Regrets- S4VN01
10. The Greeting Song- gohoog
11. My Generation (Live at Leeds)- Angels2003
12. Devil's Island- SubIime
13. For Those About to Rock (We Salute You)(Live)- LasFas
14. Jailbreak (Live) (Thin Lizzy)- JadenSlayer
15. Are You Dead Yet?- someguy913
16. My Lovely Man- SantoOs92
17. Aesthetics of Hate- ThePhoenix3
18. My Last Words- koloxid
19. Sweet Leaf- Angels2003
20. D.O.A.- Jellybeanman0925
21. Bad Omen- koloxid
22. California Uber Alles- S4VN01
23. Space Truckin'- someguy913
24. Good Mourning / Black Friday- koloxid
25. Prequel to the Sequel- S4VN01
26. Wilson (Live)- LasFas
27. Idealistic Types- someguy913
28. Image of the Invisible- PD527
29. Roll With the Changes- Angels2003
30. Eat Me Alive (Live)- PD527
31. Hammer Smashed Face- GugelHupf
32. Deuce (Live)- SantoOs92
33. Parasite (Live)- SantoOs92
34. Iron Maiden (Live)- dummerbeast
35. Treat Me Like Your Mother- gohoog
36. 666- GugelHupf
37. Fear of the Dark (Live)- S4VN01
38. No Hassle Night- GugelHupf
39. What a Horrible Night to Have a Curse- G-Rad
40. Hang You From the Heavens- S4VN01
41. Powerslave- HomelessCarl
42. You Got Me Floatin'- TheLieInKing
43. Embedded- VD0G
44. Run Through the Jungle- Rtsdeathreaper
45. I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts- PD527
46. Thieves- gladiators16
47. Guns of Summer- PD527
48. Blue Monday- TheLieInKing
49. Blaze of Glory- gladiators16
50. Conquer All- VD0G
51. If 6 Was 9- HomelessCarl
52. Hey Joe (Live)- PD527
53. Stone Free- PD527
54. Magic Bus (Live at Leeds)- gladiators16
55. Head Like a Hole- iHomer x360a
56. 3rd Stone from the Sun- gladiators16
57. Rock and Roll All Nite (Live) -iHomer x360a
58. Working Man (Vault Edition) -iHomer x360a
59. Spinning Wheel -PD527
60. Captain Jack -PD527
61. Homecoming - PD527
Look at this thread for all of the songs FCd by skipping fills
Fun Facts:
- The first 4 FC's were done on the day this thread started.
- The two songs that SubIime has FC'd off this list both have the word 'devil' in it. These are two of only three songs (those two plus Devil's Child) with the word 'devil' in it available for Rock Band.
- S4VN01 has 5 FCs off this list, and he FC'd the only two 20 free songs that made this list (Prequel and No Regrets).
- koloxid's 3 FC's were all from Megadeth's "Peace Sells...But Who's Buying?" album.
- The oldest song ever on this list was "Sweet Leaf" released on 12/04/07 and FCd on 3/8/09
Release dates of the songs still left un-FC'd, from oldest to most recent
1. Working Man (Cover)- January 29th, 2008
2. Young Man Blues- July 15th, 2008
3. The Camera Eye- September 23rd, 2008
4. This is Exile- July 7th, 2009
5. Through The Fire And Flames - March 29th, 2011
6. Operation Ground And Pound - March 29th, 2011
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6. Through The Fire and Flames (by Hobo111)
- Oh hey, Dragonforce. This song is pretty much a double kick thrash beat with a bunch of spazzy fills scattered throughout the song, so I'll list some fills of note. The first difficult fill is at 0:48, which is a really fast roll with some random double kicks in it, quad style. Then a break, then guess what? ANOTHER QUAD FILL. At 1:46, another fast fill goes like something like this: RRRRBYRRRRBYRRRRBY. Watch the video, I can't explain it well. The song goes on for a bit longer with a lot of hard fills, but nothing too exceptional. Until 3:48, which has a fast RYYYRYYYRYYYRYYYR and so on. At 4:10, what happens might be the hardest fill in the song. A really long and fast quad fill. Ow. The guitar solo has a lot of quad fills, too many to count, and they're all hard. If you've forgotten, you're still doing a double kick thrash beat at the speed of Caught In A Mosh. Then comes the last hard fill in the song, during the "Red Snake", which is a roll switching from red to yellow with bass beneath and then going into quad fills. And god, please don't choke on the cymbal swells at the very end. This FC is going to take a lot of endurance.
5. Operation Ground and Pound (by gladiators16)
- This song starts off with a very easy intro compared to the rest of the song, then a snare roll which will lead into what makes up almost all of the song. The beat is similar to the one in (Reprise) Sandblasted Skin, but it is much faster and makes up the majority of the song. You only get five short breaks from it before you hit measure 226. Once you get to measure 226, you get a break from the beat, and it changes to a more basic beat with less bass notes. At 272, it goes back into the same double kick beat until the very end. The tempo is the exact same as the tempo in Through The Fire and Flames, however this one is slightly longer in length, and it’s the general consensus that this song is significantly more difficult than Through The Fire and Flames. In, total there are 20 double bass fills (RRRROORROO, etc. or similar), with probably another twenty rolls across the pads thrown in as well, some of them last for two measures, some of them after 4 minutes of the same, continuous, tiring beat. There isn’t one fill that is clearly harder than the rest, measure 173 may be the most difficult but not by much. The fill at measure 386 is the major choke point in this song, and if you get past that without breaking combo, then the FC is basically yours.
4. Working Man (by nflnba88)
- Video
- The hard part: Roll at 7:05
Here we are, the first of three Rush songs left un-FCd, and the second version of Working Man left un-FCd. Might I add, thank God (Harmonix) for the vault edition, this cover is atrocious in my opinion. The song itself is around 7:30 long, making it very easy to miss before you even reach the hardest part of the song. The intro up until the end of the first guitar solo is a very simple beat consisting of a hi-hat every other beat with bass filling in the beats without a high-hat. However, at the start of the second solo, the tempo picks up considerably, and the hi-hat transitions to every beat with some simple bass pedal under it. Nothing difficult at all yet. Up until now, the transition fills are a simple snare-bass-snare-bass pattern. During the transition riff between guitar solos, a few rolls are added, but nothing too difficult. When the second solo starts, however, you start to see a couple fills that can possibly throw you off. Some of these include several 4 8th note bursts, a tom roll that goes both ways on the pads (YY-RR-YY-BB-G), and a fill similar to the one in Hammerhead after the slow down part. Once you get passed the solos, around 5 minutes in, you're back to the intro verse pattern for awhile. Then comes the ritard, followed by a 15 seconds break; adequate time to prepare to get fucked. Then, out of absolutely nowhere, comes a stream of red notes at 18.55 NPS. To my knowledge this roll of death has only been FCd once, making this song an unlikely FC. The verdict here is that this song will only be FCd when someone with a ton of patience and the ability to hit the roll really devotes a lot of time to it.
3. This is Exile (by Southparkhero)
- Video
This song starts with your left hand hitting the red pad at 8.33 NPS, with fast bass thrown in there, and you can only use one hand because there are sometimes you have to hit the red and green pad together, etc. Also there are 15-17 NPS rolls all throughout this song, not missing in at least one of these hard rolls is a very slim chance. These rolls most likely require precise double sticking, which not a lot of people can do. Also...the 15-17 NPS blasts that are throughout the song won't be too easy to hit as well. These blasts (which are the same pattern as PttS) are a lot faster then the PttS blasts. Not to mention the RYO blasts that are 8-9 NPS, about Hammer Smashed Face speed.
2. The Camera Eye (by nflnba88)
- Video
- The hard part: Roll at 9:27
When Moving Pictures was first announced as DLC back in August, we knew The Camera Eye would be a crazy drum song. We were right. It's not only over 10 minutes long, but it's full of weird and unexpected fills. It has a million different tempos and time signature changes throughout. It has 4,669 total notes, and an optimal score of 536475. The intro rolls, in sort of a marching band snare pattern, are no easy task to escape with an FC. It has several 16th note speedups, bass pedal, and R+Y notes in the middle of R rolls, forcing you to double hit the red with the non-dominant hand. After this, the main riffs are relatively easy, being simple hi-hat and snare riffs, with the occasional ride and snare transition. The fills here, however, are many and confusing. None have, say, 32nd notes, making them really tough, but none are easy. Another factor are the charted notes corresponding with the extremely quiet chime sounds Neil makes. They're always off tempo, and there's nothing to hear, really. With nothing in particular standing out after this, let's fast forward about 9 minutes to the real reason this song hasn't been FC'd. Forget the Working Men (lol) rolls of death, THIS is the roll of death. It's charted at 16.9 NPS, lasting for over 6 measures. And what sound does it make when you hit any of the notes? It's a barely audible roll of snares, followed by toms. There are literally hundreds of choke points, the song is 10 minutes long, and even if by miracle someone FC's to the roll, well, there's the roll. Good luck to all.
Sticking for the death roll in The Camera Eye by GQD2008:
- The first line of the code are the notes, as shown in the corresponding snapshot of the chart.
- The second line of code is the recommended sticking (R=right hand, L=left hand, F=foot).
| Code: | RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB
RRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLRLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLRLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRR |
1. Young Man Blues (Live at Leeds) (by LethalFishEater)
- Video
- The hard parts: Rolls at 0:13, 0:29, 1:10, and 4:34
The hardest of the unFC'd drum songs. No doubt, no debate. The main reason being three absolutely ridiculous fills in the first 80 seconds of the song. All are beyond fast (16th Triplets at over 170 bpm), registering at 17.2 nps, 17.8 nps, and 17.9 nps, with the third roll going down to "only" 11.9 nps, and all of the rolls are spread out all over the pads, not to mention the mostly random pedal (What else are we supposed to expect from Keith Moon?). We are still waiting for just one of these rolls to be FC'd on Full Speed once, much less all three in a single run. Good luck hitting all that, and if you happened to make past those with an FC, the rest of the song is a choke waiting to happen. Anyone who was to legitimately attempt this FC would have to have all the sections to the point where there would be no risk whatsoever of a miss outside of the rolls.
Sticking for three fills in Young Man Blues by GQD2008:
[*]The first line of the code are the notes, as shown in the corresponding snapshot of the chart.
[*]The second line of code is the recommended sticking (R=right hand, L=left hand, F=foot).
#1 (Starting on the Green+Orange that starts the first roll off):
| Code: | [G+O]RRRRRRRRRRRRRYRRYRRRYRRRRR[R+O]RRRRYRRR[B+O]RRYRR[B+O]YB[Y+O]BY[G+O]
[R+F]LLRRLLRRLLRRLRLLRLRLRLLRRL[L+F]RRLLRLRL[R+F]LLRLL[R+F]LR[L+F]RL[R+F] |
#2 (starting in measure 21):
| Code: | BRRRYRRRBRRY,R,R,RRRRRRYRRYRRR[B+O]RR[R+O]YRRRYY,[G+O]
RLRLRLRLRLLR,L,R,LLRRLLRLLRLRL[R+F]LR[L+F]RLRLRL,[R+F] |
#3 (Starting in 51 with the alternating green yellows):
| Code: | G,GYGYGYYGYGYGYGYG,YYYRRRRRRRYY[Y+O],YR[Y+O]Y[Y+O]Y[Y+O]Y[R+O]Y[Y+O]Y[Y+O]Y[B+O],[Y+O]
R,RLRLRLLRLRLRLRLR,RLRLLRRLRLRL[R+F],RL[R+F]L[R+F]L[R+F]R[L+F]R[R+F]L[R+F]L[R+F],[R+F] |
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Last edited by gladiators16 on Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:01 pm; edited 11 times in total |
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gladiators16
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 954
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:40 am Post subject: |
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Thank you to nfl for passing the torch on to me, hopefully I don't let everyone down. 
I think these may need some rearranging, especially numbers 5, 6, 7, 8.
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Quazifuji
Joined: 13 May 2007
Posts: 1344
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Maybe the term "broken bass note" in the Spinning Wheel description should be changed to something less ambiguous (e.g. "a bass note in between two notes of a roll"). "Broken bass note" makes it sound like it could be glitched, rather than just weirdly (and potentially incorrectly) placed.
I think in general the descriptions could probably be a lot shorter. The "play by play" style descriptions of practically everything in the whole song are a pain to read and kind of excessive. If someone wants to know what the song sounds like in that amount of detail, they can watch a video. Maybe the description should just give a quick overview of the nastier parts. For example, the description of either Dragonforce song could just be "Most of this song is a fast double kick thrash beat that can be tiring and chokeable, but there are a lot of nasty rolls and quadfills throughout. Some particularly nasty fills are.." |
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MehPlusRawr
Joined: 20 Jul 2009
Posts: 1389
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Anyone up for moving WMs to 3 and 4, or possibly with TiE at 4 and WM at 5? They've been here for ages and aren't moving any time soon.
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Hobo111
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
Posts: 3414
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Hmmmm, something stands out..... I know! It's the link to the Spinning Wheel chart! It's not bold! fixplz
| MehPlusRawr wrote: | | Anyone up for moving WMs to 3 and 4, or possibly with TiE at 4 and WM at 5? They've been here for ages and aren't moving any time soon. |
I think that TiE should be moved to 4 and WM (VE) should go to 3, but the cover can stay where it is.
| Quazifuji wrote: | | Maybe the term "broken bass note" in the Spinning Wheel description should be changed to something less ambiguous (e.g. "a bass note in between two notes of a roll"). "Broken bass note" makes it sound like it could be glitched, rather than just weirdly (and potentially incorrectly) placed. |
Well, this is how these kinds of notes have been described, including in the Magic Bus description. (And not to mention the MVP custom on YT.)
| Quote: | | I think in general the descriptions could probably be a lot shorter. The "play by play" style descriptions of practically everything in the whole song are a pain to read and kind of excessive. If someone wants to know what the song sounds like in that amount of detail, they can watch a video. Maybe the description should just give a quick overview of the nastier parts. For example, the description of either Dragonforce song could just be "Most of this song is a fast double kick thrash beat that can be tiring and chokeable, but there are a lot of nasty rolls and quadfills throughout. Some particularly nasty fills are.." |
So you're thinking like, some of the descriptions on the RBN1 list, like this: | BobDole wrote: | | Infected Nation: Several instances of short 16 NPS strumming bursts and a very difficult solo with varied patterns, most notably 16 NPS chimneys. |
I see what you can mean, but on a list like this, where all of the songs are in order, it can lead to a bit more confusion about where the songs should be. tl;dr, I like them the way it is.
Last edited by Hobo111 on Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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redskinsrock2689
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 298
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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I think 3rd Stone from the Sun and Working Man (CE) should be switched personally, I haven't played Spinning Wheel so I can't really disagree with it, but I was suprised to see it placed so low.
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Nubnut
Joined: 07 Jun 2008
Posts: 2078
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| redskinsrock2689 wrote: | | I think 3rd Stone from the Sun and Working Man (CE) should be switched personally, I haven't played Spinning Wheel so I can't really disagree with it, but I was suprised to see it placed so low. |
I have to second this, but as for Spinning Wheel. It definitely deserves the spot, if not taking WM (VE)'s spot at #4, the outro is just ridiculous.
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 1st place on 8 GH:WoR songs on Expert+ drums! (well, at least for a couple days).
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Quazifuji
Joined: 13 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Hobo111 wrote: | So you're thinking like, some of the descriptions on the RBN1 list, like this: | BobDole wrote: | | Infected Nation: Several instances of short 16 NPS strumming bursts and a very difficult solo with varied patterns, most notably 16 NPS chimneys. |
I see what you can mean, but on a list like this, where all of the songs are in order, it can lead to a bit more confusion about where the songs should be. tl;dr, I like them the way it is. |
Maybe, it can be a bit more detailed than that, possibly something like the current This is Exiled description. Still, that Infected Nation description has pretty much all the info you need to understand why it's hard. For the purposes of ordering the list, you don't need to have all the other details, and if you want them anyway you can just watch the video.
It just seems like a lot of these descriptions could be cut down to about half their length without losing any information about what actually makes them difficult. The Homecoming description doesn't need the section-by-section breakdown when the description for pretty much every section but one is just "this part's pretty easy and probably shouldn't be much of a problem." It seems like you could just replace the entire description with "The main challenge of this song comes from the "Nobody Likes You" section about 4 and a half minutes in, which [description of that section]. Aside from that, it's mostly fairly easy, but there are a few non-trivial fills, and being over nine minutes long it can still take some endurance and patience to make it through without choking." |
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inv4der
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 9656
Location: Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Hobo111 wrote: | | Quazifuji wrote: | | Maybe the term "broken bass note" in the Spinning Wheel description should be changed to something less ambiguous (e.g. "a bass note in between two notes of a roll"). "Broken bass note" makes it sound like it could be glitched, rather than just weirdly (and potentially incorrectly) placed. |
Well, this is how these kinds of notes have been described, including in the Magic Bus description. (And not to mention the MVP custom on YT.) |
"Broken" is still misleading. If it's possible to hit the way it's charted, which this section is (I assume), then it's not broken. It's just something that shouldn't be used for the sake of accuracy, especially since there's already been a Pro Drum note that actually is broken.
Similarly the roll lanes are not really broken, they just work in a somewhat counter intuitive way and referring to them as broken is inaccurate. I don't think anything on the list has one at the moment, so that doesn't really matter as much, but it's still important to remember.
Also, I'm gonna suggest being a little more professional with descriptions. There's some poor wording and at least one opinion in those descriptions, and it wouldn't take too much to edit them to be more precise and formal.
There's also the issue of fact checking since I'm sure some of the facts about how many times things like the Working Man roll has been FCed are out of date. (Not that I know anything about it to fix that, but still. >__>)
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Hobo111
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
Posts: 3414
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| inv4der wrote: | | I don't think anything on the list has one at the moment, so that doesn't really matter as much, but it's still important to remember. |
Spinning Wheel has one, which is the reason it was brought up. |
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MasterNobody
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 2791
Location: Duxbury, MA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Cheers for getting this going Glad.
My thoughts on 3-8, take them with a grain of salt because I'm not a drummer:
8. Homecoming- harder than the Dragonforce songs for sure, but nothing incredibly fast like the songs below. Requires, instead, an insane amount of consistency.
7. Spinning Wheel- not that this is easy...but the madness of 3rd Stone and Working Man seem to exceed the difficultly of this outro.
6. Working Man- Outro roll alone seems to be harder than Spinning Wheel's outro.
5. 3rd Stone- The crazy swing beat is harder than the rest of Spinning Wheel, and I would say the BBBO GROG etc. madness is harder than the hardest part of Spinning Wheel.
4. This is Exile- The first song that's actually possible
3. Working Man VE- not going anywhere any time soon
I think this looks very reasonable. I also think it's better to underestimate Spinning Wheel than overestimate it, because there really hasn't been enough time for the best drummers to take a crack at it. If it stays for a long time we could certainly move it later.
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Hobo111
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
Posts: 3414
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| MasterNobody wrote: | | Working Man seem to exceed the difficultly of this outro. |
FUCK NO |
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mav1
Joined: 30 Dec 2010
Posts: 200
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:22 am Post subject: |
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I have seen the working man outros FCed. It's possible but you need a good kit that doesn't drop notes. Working man positions are fine
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MehPlusRawr
Joined: 20 Jul 2009
Posts: 1389
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| mav1 wrote: | | you need a good kit that doesn't drop notes |
EXACTLY. This is the reason the song is hard: drum sets are not reliable. A few people have FCed the rolls, but afaik none of them are actively attempting an FC.
Hobo, the spinning wheel outro is at least possible without spending thousands of dollars on a kit. :|
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WHOKILLEDKENNY9
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Hobo111 wrote: | | MasterNobody wrote: | | Working Man seem to exceed the difficultly of this outro. |
FUCK NO |
Yeah spinning wheel is just insane. Don't knock it till you try it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk_6jS6yuGo
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