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inv4der
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 9656
Location: Meridian, ID
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 Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| b0bb0 wrote: | | Quote: | isaacindahouse wrote:
release more stuff similar to Pandemonium, Ceraunophobia, etc.
This. Most people actually enjoy playing these two songs, rather than 2-3 drummers and guitarists being able to even gold star them like Chiasm and whatnot |
Chiasm and whatnot? Chiasm and what? I enjoy playing every one of my songs, and I have a blast with Chiasm. You are connecting 'enjoy,' with 'being able to gold star,' and I don't agree with that. |
I would have to agree with them, and I think to some extent you're not really getting the complaints. Virtually every single song of yours since the RBN2 started has had at least one totally unreasonable thing, with Chiasm being the worst of the set.
The other thing is that you're taking iHomer's comment regarding golding it being stupid very incorrectly. Anyone besides you that plays it can tell you it is not fun and it is not fair.
It is nearly impossible to "enjoy" Chiasm on anything because it's just so stupid.
I used to be okay with your stuff, honestly. But ever since around Diachylon, if not a little earlier, your stuff has mostly escalated in difficulty to the point where your claims that you're not just making these songs to dominate top FC lists rings a little hollow. (Chiasm is again the worst, since it's on every single list. >__>) Stuff like XIV and the ones already mentioned were great and more stuff like that is fine. It's when we get the Chiasms and the 30+nps solo sections (Dystopia >__>) and the stupidly awkward non-guitar parts (Chiasm, Hourglass pt 2, TTiTN, etc) that the problem comes in.
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b0bb0
Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| inv4der wrote: | | b0bb0 wrote: | | Quote: | isaacindahouse wrote:
release more stuff similar to Pandemonium, Ceraunophobia, etc.
This. Most people actually enjoy playing these two songs, rather than 2-3 drummers and guitarists being able to even gold star them like Chiasm and whatnot |
Chiasm and whatnot? Chiasm and what? I enjoy playing every one of my songs, and I have a blast with Chiasm. You are connecting 'enjoy,' with 'being able to gold star,' and I don't agree with that. |
I would have to agree with them, and I think to some extent you're not really getting the complaints. Virtually every single song of yours since the RBN2 started has had at least one totally unreasonable thing, with Chiasm being the worst of the set.
The other thing is that you're taking iHomer's comment regarding golding it being stupid very incorrectly. Anyone besides you that plays it can tell you it is not fun and it is not fair.
It is nearly impossible to "enjoy" Chiasm on anything because it's just so stupid.
I used to be okay with your stuff, honestly. But ever since around Diachylon, if not a little earlier, your stuff has mostly escalated in difficulty to the point where your claims that you're not just making these songs to dominate top FC lists rings a little hollow. (Chiasm is again the worst, since it's on every single list. >__>) Stuff like XIV and the ones already mentioned were great and more stuff like that is fine. It's when we get the Chiasms and the 30+nps solo sections (Dystopia >__>) and the stupidly awkward non-guitar parts (Chiasm, Hourglass pt 2, TTiTN, etc) that the problem comes in. |
I understand all your complaints, I really do. As I've explained before, the style of music I like (liked) to write was fast paced songs, and combined with the fact that it's all virtual, non-guitar parts are bound to happen. I can't change my style of music just because of this though. I don't care about Hardest to FC lists.
And you keep using 'stupid' to describe things. What's so stupid about very hard guitar parts? Is it stupid because it's hard to FC? How is not being able to FC something a problem? I just don't see the logic behind everyone's complaints. I feel like all anyone cares about is getting the FC, it's ingrained in people's brains, and if that is nearly impossible to do, than it's just a stupid song, and they can have no fun with it.
I remember back when I saw the TtFaF chart for the first time. I thought it was ridiculous, but I still had so much fun playing it, even when I was learning to tap the intro.
In a nutshell, I grew up listening to Dream Theater and playing Guitar Hero. My style of music exemplifies this. If it looks like I create strange tapping patterns in solos, that's because I loved that type of music and I knew how to write it, probably because of my Guitar Hero mindset.
If nothing I'm saying will satisfy any of you, and Inv4der is right about everyone but me not having fun on Chiasm drums, then there is nothing else I can really say. Synesthesia is the hardest it will get for a while, unless I decide to do Kuromori. I will continue to make songs, and put them up based on what my friends think, what I think, and when anyone online recommends something.
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b0bb0
Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:48 am Post subject: |
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I changed this to The Chaotrope Thread. It seemed more convenient.
On a different note, what did you all think of 'The Singularity? I believe there are videos of the Bass, Guitar, and Drum charts on Youtube.
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inv4der
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 9656
Location: Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| b0bb0 wrote: | I understand all your complaints, I really do. As I've explained before, the style of music I like (liked) to write was fast paced songs, and combined with the fact that it's all virtual, non-guitar parts are bound to happen. I can't change my style of music just because of this though. I don't care about Hardest to FC lists.
I never said "change your style", I said that your old work, which is, of course, your style, was better. The reason for this is that they are far more reasonable. I can't FC Diachylon or XIV, Chiasm or Reaper, Hourglass pt 2 or Ceraunophobia, (Hell, I can barely even consider golding any of that set) but if you asked which I would want to play of each pair, it would always be the second of the pairs. Your older work was still difficult and fast, but it was not unreasonable via the addition of horrible sounding split second ultra fast note spam for no good reason.
If you look at your "classic" RBN songs, the stupidly fast sections were far less common, more reasonable patterns and almost always in solos. Now they'll show up anywhere they goddamn please for no good reason.
And you keep using 'stupid' to describe things. What's so stupid about very hard guitar parts? Is it stupid because it's hard to FC? How is not being able to FC something a problem? I just don't see the logic behind everyone's complaints. I feel like all anyone cares about is getting the FC, it's ingrained in people's brains, and if that is nearly impossible to do, than it's just a stupid song, and they can have no fun with it.
I would never play your songs for an FC because I'm simply not that good. (Well, there's a couple of your older bass parts I could do.) My use of "stupid" stems, once again from your focus on things that are extremely awkward, either due to the pattern or the speed. (or both. >__>) 20+nps scales and fills are unreasonable and there's no good reason for them. (And I promise you, you're the only RBN author that would chart anything that fast, especially without lanes.) The chord messes present in Chiasm bass and Hourglass pt 2 bass are some of the least fun things I've ever even tried to play and I enjoy Believing on G/B. There's just so many issues with Chiasm drums being unreasonable that someone like iHomer would need to list them all.
Now, I'm sure you'll say that it's accurate to the music and the same old tropes dragged out by everyone else that charts their own music. (See: A Slight Amplification.) However, as precedent has shown, accuracy comes at a cost, and if the cost is playability and enjoyment (As seen in your newer songs), I question the focus on accuracy.
Honestly, asking the other RBN people if anything seems excessively hard, and how best to tone it down a little, they'd help you out. Gambit is a good example. It's still stupidly hard, but it's probably the most undercharted song ever released.
It might insult you to consider "dumbing down" the artistic intent of your note spam, but honestly, it's gotten somewhat out of hand. Reign in your art a little and everything will be fine.
I remember back when I saw the TtFaF chart for the first time. I thought it was ridiculous, but I still had so much fun playing it, even when I was learning to tap the intro.
There's a bit of a difference between a relatively simple 13nps tapping pattern in an intro and 20nps+ patterns that pop up without warning outside of solos. I'm not even getting any more into this mess of a comparison.
In a nutshell, I grew up listening to Dream Theater and playing Guitar Hero. My style of music exemplifies this. If it looks like I create strange tapping patterns in solos, that's because I loved that type of music and I knew how to write it, probably because of my Guitar Hero mindset.
I must have missed John Petrucci's totally pointless split second wankery in the middle of Dream Theater's verses. Or the instances of that in every song I've ever played on a GH or RB disc. There's a difference between your inspiration and what I've seen in your charts. Myung certainly would never suddenly do a 20nps+ tapping fill that adds nothing in the middle of strumming during a guitar solo.
If nothing I'm saying will satisfy any of you, and Inv4der is right about everyone but me not having fun on Chiasm drums, then there is nothing else I can really say. Synesthesia is the hardest it will get for a while, unless I decide to do Kuromori. I will continue to make songs, and put them up based on what my friends think, what I think, and when anyone online recommends something.
I do honestly think you're alone in thinking Chaism is fun. I certainly have not seen any of the sort of "this song is awesome go play it on drums" type comments that made Love Spreads or whatever stapes of drum song purchases.
I'll be sure to continue paying attention to your work, simply because I know I have to to run a top FCs thread. However, should you consider my thoughts that a return to the classic style, like your first four RBN songs. They're not all that different, other than the fact that XIV and Ceraunophobia and Baptized By Fire don't have super complex patterns at speeds you normally only see in GH3 customs. The worst thing in any of those is the XIV solo chimneys and even that isn't as bad as something like the Dystopia 36nps scales. (Credit where it's due, those scales are at least in a solo. >__>)
And please, no more of the awkward chord messes on bass.
(Also lowercase i in inv4der please.) |
I honestly try to be reasonable, you could easily make a song as fun to play as XIV or Ceraunophobia again. Those are not easy, and I can't FC them. My argument regarding fun does not involve golding of FCing. However when a fill just shows up that adds nothing more than a cheap combo break, I question how you or anyone would enjoy that.
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DragoonXD
Joined: 29 Mar 2010
Posts: 1114
Location: Round Rock, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:53 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand how one or two fills can completely ruin the enjoyment of a song.
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yksi-kaksi-kolme
Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Posts: 2803
Location: philly skramzzzz
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| DragoonXD wrote: | | I don't understand how one or two fills can completely ruin the enjoyment of a song. |
Because scorehero likes FCs, and having a wtf part in an otherwise mediocre song is a very cheap way to be a hard FC. Does having that certain "problem fill" make the song musically better in any way? 9 times out of 10, the answer is no, so it seems like difficulty for the sake of difficulty
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inv4der
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 9656
Location: Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| DragoonXD wrote: | | I don't understand how one or two fills can completely ruin the enjoyment of a song. |
My issue with these fills is that they like to show up in parts I'm actually enjoying for no apparent musical reason, just to be really fucking difficult to hit, and thereby break my combo. Sure, you could say, oh well you're just mad you can't FC it or gold it or whatever.
But the casual player who only plays just to play the game, not for score, just for fun at a party is playing Call Me Maybe or some classic rock song. He's not playing Chaotrope, and he's certainly not in Chaotrope's market. Scorehero type players, the good players who play for score and FCs are his market, whether he wants to think that or not.
And as a player who plays for a decent score, if an FC is unreasonable (which my favorite Chaotrope song, XIV, is for me), something like a pointless bit of note spam that doesn't have any obvious reason for existing seems like a cheap shot against my enjoyment of my run.
Of course, if we're talking Chiasm drums, which by its very nature, discussions of Chaotrope annoyance will gravitate to, the fills are exactly the sort that people complain about, the whole pedal between pads thing. The sort of cheap difficulty that is normally called "broken".
EDIT: yeah mostly what yksi said. Except it's not even only FCs, these hard fills that exist for no clear reason beyond being hard to play can run everything down to 5*s, which is a bit much.
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mazegeek999PSN
Joined: 23 Jul 2012
Posts: 460
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:21 am Post subject: |
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This is turning in to a whole debate... if you don't enjoy the song, don't buy it. Plain and simple.
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b0bb0
Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:34 am Post subject: |
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I'll let your words speak for themselves.
I'm not going to argue over the internet, and I've said everything I wanted to say. Also, you have very nice diction, inv4der, I appreciate you taking the extra time.
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Scratch47
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Just want to add, even though I can't even 5* most Chaotrope, I do enjoy your material, and LOVE a challenge, but please for the love of God make Chiasm the hardest thing you do, PRETTY PLEASE WITH A CHERRY ON TOP.
And yeah, note spam is more than a bit annoying. Aside from that, please keep rocking and I'll keep buying. |
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ilblud91
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not going to complain, since I love your stuff, even the crazy songs that I don't have a snowball's chance in hell of passing (Chiasm, HPPt.2, Reaper, etc.)
That being said, it'd be nice to have some more songs of reasonable difficulty. If you say that sort of thing is in the pipeline, then I've got no complaints.
Actually I do. I know it's beyond your control, but I'd like to see songs more frequently. |
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ilblud91
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| EDIT: Double post. |
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Pas26
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 3664
Location: Québec, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Major complain is that there is absolutely no point in charting stuff like chiasm this way. There are multiple ways to chart to 5 frets; the engine is NOT MADE AT ALL for very fast speed, as not only do you have to go twice as fast for a 30 NPS section vs a 15 one, but you ALSO need to be twice as precise. Also, practice doesnt let you practice under 70% of the speed; this makes learning insanely fast sections almost impossible.
My complains are only aimed toward Dystopia and Chiasm, however. I feel like you did a good job to provide challenging charts for players looking for difficulty with the rest of your stuff. Complexity at a high speed is something cool, but brute speed is not something you should throw in RB.
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Quazifuji
Joined: 13 May 2007
Posts: 1344
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| b0bb0 wrote: |
On a different note, what did you all think of 'The Singularity? I believe there are videos of the Bass, Guitar, and Drum charts on Youtube. |
There are? I haven't found a single video outside of customs. |
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b0bb0
Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ilblud91 wrote: | I'm not going to complain, since I love your stuff, even the crazy songs that I don't have a snowball's chance in hell of passing (Chiasm, HPPt.2, Reaper, etc.)
That being said, it'd be nice to have some more songs of reasonable difficulty. If you say that sort of thing is in the pipeline, then I've got no complaints.
Actually I do. I know it's beyond your control, but I'd like to see songs more frequently. |
Yuukei is almost in the pipeline, it's about as hard as XIV, maybe a bit easier, and it's a WAY better song, so I think everyone will like that one.
Sorry about the hiatus I took recently. I had to get settled into college, and I couldn't find any time to chart any songs. I did get to write some though; I have 2 songs on a new album (Post-Wander) already.
| Quote: |
Just want to add, even though I can't even 5* most Chaotrope, I do enjoy your material, and LOVE a challenge, but please for the love of God make Chiasm the hardest thing you do, PRETTY PLEASE WITH A CHERRY ON TOP.
And yeah, note spam is more than a bit annoying. Aside from that, please keep rocking and I'll keep buying. |
Chiasm is definitely the hardest it will get on all instruments. Synesthesia will be up there on drums, but I don't think anything will come close to that, besides Kuromori.
| Quote: | | There are? I haven't found a single video outside of customs. |
There's a video of bass, drums, and the hard parts on guitar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49NB3HFTAe8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdU-0U4WRRI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgKucObp7dI
What do you guys think of me charting Halcyon? It'd be the first song I've done out of order, but it's my brother's favorite song, and I want to do it for his birthday. http://chaotrope.bandcamp.com/track/halcyon
Also, I forgot to mention, all the 'problem' songs i.e. Chiasm, Scarred, TTitN Pt 2, Hourglass, were on the same album. It was kind of a theme of that album.
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