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Do I need to know how to play the piano to play Pro Keys?
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malictus  





Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 994
Location: Bloomington, IN

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to chime in on the one hand/two hand issue: I see no reason not to use both hands if it helps me play something. I know that many Pro Keys players see that as 'cheating' or somehow less impressive, but really I'm just interested in getting as many FC's / high scores as possible. There's nothing about the game that prevents you from using both hands, so why not make it easier on yourself?

Still, I usually end up playing virtually everything with one hand, since you'll need the other hand to whammy/activate correctly for the highest score. But I don't think twice about using my left hand when necessary.
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blingdomepiece  





Joined: 03 Aug 2007
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Location: Ottawa ON Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

malictus wrote:
Just to chime in on the one hand/two hand issue: I see no reason not to use both hands if it helps me play something. I know that many Pro Keys players see that as 'cheating' or somehow less impressive, but really I'm just interested in getting as many FC's / high scores as possible. There's nothing about the game that prevents you from using both hands, so why not make it easier on yourself?


This is probably less of a concern for you, but I feel it would stunt my development to do that. Being able to switch between hand positions quickly is necessary to get better. Say for the easier songs you don't do this and instead just use "extra fingers" to hit the other parts. Then when you get to a harder song you don't have the ability to move your hand frequently because you didn't develop it properly at the lower level. Likewise if you use both hands to get around weakness in your ring finger and pinky, then you get to a song that for whatever reason CANNOT be played that way, you are stuck. Lastly, maximizing my right-hand ability lends itself best to future playing of two-handed parts.

tldr; my goal is not just high scores, it's learning to play keys proficiently. If you're already there I can see why you wouldn't care about that.
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malictus  





Joined: 19 Jun 2006
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Location: Bloomington, IN

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blingdomepiece wrote:
tldr; my goal is not just high scores, it's learning to play keys proficiently. If you're already there I can see why you wouldn't care about that.

Makes perfect sense to me.
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Skyp1e  





Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I addressed my opinion about this on the "Official" RB forums. I think I'll just cut and paste my feelings here:

Quote:
I don't know. I'm usually the first one to feel negatively to those that do things the cheap way, but speaking as a one handed player I say let those that want to use both hands use both hands. I really don't feel like they're cheating anyone but themselves by doing it this way. I don't think that the game designers really expect game players to specifically NOT use two hands if that is how they want to do it.

I don't want to do it that way. A lot of people with real keyboard playing chops don't want to do it that way, but I can certainly understand where those with no experience would want to do it that way and I don't fault them for it.

Would I try to convince them to try it one handed?

Yes I would, but not because of how it affects me and my scores, but how it might benefit -them- in the short and long run.

That is all.


I did follow up that post to respond to someone that challenged my position with this final thought on the matter:

Quote:
I still say that even though I don't have any problem with people playing the game with two hands those that take the effort to learn the parts with only one hand will be grateful for the effort if they have their heart set on playing piano/keyboards for real outside of the game.

It's been said more than once that every chart is the transcription for right hand only (although I think I have found at least one example where some left hand snuck in under the radar, but I digress). The official stance is that it's all right hand parts that you are playing in this game. So, it means that it's not only possible, but that the original performances being recreated here were all (supposedly) done by right hand alone. Why not emulate that if you can, for your own sake as an evolving keyboard player?

Again I cannot emphasize this too much though, that the above paragraph is just my personal opinion for those seeking to play for real beyond the game. If you have no such aspirations then by all means play with both hands and both feet if it will get you the score you want. I don't have a problem with it.


I will now add something NEW to these sentiments based on things I've learned that people will do.

I cannot abide a cheater and I consider it cheating to program a sequencer to play any part for any song and just let it score for you.

I know there are people that are apathetic to that sort of thing and shrug it off as unimportant but as someone that wants to play this game for the challenge of performing against other people that are also playing the game I think it's a rotten thing to do.

High scores at any cost hurts everyone that is playing.
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malictus  





Joined: 19 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyp1e wrote:
I cannot abide a cheater and I consider it cheating to program a sequencer to play any part for any song and just let it score for you.


I think that I (and essentially everyone in the scorehero community) would agree with you on this point!
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blingdomepiece  





Joined: 03 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

malictus wrote:
Skyp1e wrote:
I cannot abide a cheater and I consider it cheating to program a sequencer to play any part for any song and just let it score for you.


I think that I (and essentially everyone in the scorehero community) would agree with you on this point!


Yes, posting a score obtained by a bot is grounds for a ban.
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googleimage  





Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of the very good pro keys players that I have talked to and/or seen, the consensus has been unanimous that 2 hands is A-OK.
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blingdomepiece  





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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

googleimage wrote:
Of the very good pro keys players that I have talked to and/or seen, the consensus has been unanimous that 2 hands is A-OK.


Well, I don't really know what A-OK means in your post. I think we agree that it's not cheating already.

Saying "of the very good players" is trying to lend your argument more weight by authority than it might have by merit. I'm less interested in who thinks a certain way and more interested in the reasons behind it. If you throw out the best keys players you know and I throw out the Harmonix design team saying how they designed the charts for the right hand, what does that accomplish to the actual substance of the argument? Let it stand on its own.

I think it's helpful to distinguish between actual top players who are capable of doing well with one hand and sometimes choose to use two, and weaker players who struggle with one hand but take a shortcut to results with two.

As an example of the former, iamchris4life's Bohemian Rhapsody FC features two hands for one section of the song that repeats. He explains why he did it in the video, it was a choke point. He hits all the hardest parts with one hand. He chose to use two hands to get an FC he was obviously capable of getting a bit sooner.

As an example of the latter, I saw a Youtube video the other day of someone 5-starring Dead End Friends on expert. This song is an absolute killer for me because of all the hand movement, so I was curious to see how he played it. He uses two hands the whole way, with his left hand on the low keys and his right hand on the high keys. You can see the video here. I am not knocking the guy. But it appears at the time he recorded the video he was incapable of playing the song with one hand, and it's unlikely that playing it this way moved him much further along.

Usually when you play real keys with two hands, each hand is playing a different part and you are multi-tasking. This isn't news to anyone who actually plays piano, but I'm writing it for the benefit of those who don't. When you play a one-handed RB part with two hands, usually one hand is idle while the other one is working. You can see this extensively in the video I linked to. So it's fallacious to suggest that "real keys players use two hands" because real keys players would be playing the charted part with one hand, and playing a separate part or using effects wheels with the other.

My belief is that if you are one of the weaker players who struggles playing songs with one hand, it is better for your development to be patient and play with one hand. I think going straight to two hands short-circuits yourself in ways I already described in an earlier post.

Now with my little screed out of the way, I would be curious to hear from some of the top keys players who use two hands. Looking at the final tier songs, which of these do you use two hands on, and for what parts:

* China Grove
* Sister Christian
* Saturday Night's Alright For Fighting
* Bohemian Rhapsody
* I Got You
* Freebird
* Llama

I left out Antibodies and Roundabout because, duh .

Also are there any lower-tier songs where you find two hands are necessary, and if so, for what parts?

I'm kind of suspecting that most of the top guys actually do use one hand the vast majority of the time, but in the interests of developing that thesis I need to gather some data, since I am clearly not a top player . So hopefully you guys can indulge me and we can turn this from a philosophical battle into an exchange of information.
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malictus  





Joined: 19 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blingdomepiece wrote:
Now with my little screed out of the way, I would be curious to hear from some of the top keys players who use two hands. Looking at the final tier songs, which of these do you use two hands on, and for what parts:

* China Grove
* Sister Christian
* Saturday Night's Alright For Fighting
* Bohemian Rhapsody
* I Got You
* Freebird
* Llama

Hmm I'm a big DLC fan so I haven't played some of those songs in a while but let me think...

China Grove I'm working on right now (Pro Keys League Playoffs) and I'm using one hand all the way except for the little two-note chromatic runs that lead into the chorus and the repeated notes at the very end. The reason is simple; while I can easily play both of these sections one-handed, they both are much easier for me play with two hands. With a song like China Grove, there are too many choke points for me to take any chances.

Sister Christian I was playing one-handed the whole way through.

Llama I played mostly two-handed. Just too difficult for me to try to one-hand it.

As far as DLC goes, I do try to play one-handed for songs that are more piano or organ based (Billy Joel or the Doors for example). But for songs that are 99% likely to have been sequenced or multitracked on the recording (such as Head Like a Hole, which I was just playing recently) the parts are pretty awkward to play one-handed and much easier when using two.
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Voltgloss  





Joined: 26 Apr 2008
Posts: 314
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blingdomepiece wrote:
Now with my little screed out of the way, I would be curious to hear from some of the top keys players who use two hands. Looking at the final tier songs, which of these do you use two hands on, and for what parts:

* China Grove
* Sister Christian
* Saturday Night's Alright For Fighting
* Bohemian Rhapsody
* I Got You
* Freebird
* Llama


Of these songs, I've so far only really ground the ones that have shown up for leagues (China Grove, Sister Christian, Llama). I play them all one-handed. This includes my Sister Christian FC.

Of the others, I also play them all one-handed, but when the time comes to grind for leagues or for a GS or (ha) FC, if there is a part that seems easier to do with two hands, I'll try it. Though to be frank, much of the time when I try to do two hands I find it more awkward than just using one. Again, leaving aside Antibodies and Roundabout, of course.

blingdomepiece wrote:
Also are there any lower-tier songs where you find two hands are necessary, and if so, for what parts?


The end of The Killing Moon is much easier to play if you use your left hand for the lowest bass note of the four-note chords. There's one spot where you have to quickly sort-of-trill three notes down in that bass area - while the rest of your right hand is otherwise occupied with the remainder of the chord - that I could NOT hit without using my left hand.

Good Vibrations has a spot right after the bridge where you have a chord at the high end of the notes highway and a single bass note almost immediately after at the far low end. I use my left hand to play that single bass note. I can do the quick jump with my right hand, but not consistently. (I do not use my left hand for the bridge section itself.)

Space Oddity has possibly the weirdest version: there's a five-note sustained broken chord that adds a sixth note on top, which I play by crossing my left hand over my right to hit that last sixth note.

Finally, I would note that playing fast arpeggiated sections (a la Antibodies and Roundabout) is often done by professional players using two hands simultaneously in the same octave or roughly-octave span. Even in classical music. C.P.E. Bach's Solfeggietto in C Minor is an example that many students learning classical piano encounter (myself included).
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blingdomepiece  





Joined: 03 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voltgloss wrote:
The end of The Killing Moon is much easier to play if you use your left hand for the lowest bass note of the four-note chords. There's one spot where you have to quickly sort-of-trill three notes down in that bass area - while the rest of your right hand is otherwise occupied with the remainder of the chord - that I could NOT hit without using my left hand.


I know the "trill" part you are talking about. I've never hit it at full speed. I have found the 4-note chords pretty hard because of the one rooted in Eb... it pretty much obliges you to use your thumb for a black note which causes me to move deeper into the keys than I intend to which then causes me to miss chords.

Two other songs that seem like they would be much easier with two hands (along with Dead End Friends):

Du Hast. The melody has that one low note (a low E I think) that keeps popping up and the rest of the notes fall easily in the natural A-E range. So if you use your left hand to hit that low note the section would seem to become much simpler. With one hand it seems you'd either have to move your thumb quickly (my current strategy, works at 70% but not as well at full speed), or anchor your thumb at E and do some fancy fingering with the high notes (probably what I do in the end).

In a Big Country. Maybe someone who has actually gold-starred this could correct me if I'm wrong, but this song seems easier to handle if you use your left hand to play the low chords (B-range) and your right hand to play the high E-range. I passed the song using my right hand and skipping most of the low notes, and have only recently been working on extending my hand the full octave for the moving chords (there is one sequence that is fairly easy because it's the same 4 notes, and then there is every other sequence that I can't do, haha).

Me Enamora, Humanoid, Crosstown Traffic, and Something Bigger, Something Brighter are all songs that should get easier because instead of doing an octave range with your right hand, you can hit the low part with the strongest fingers of the left hand and the high part with the strongest fingers of the right hand.

I think some songs that are considered overtiered actually aren't if they are played single-handed.
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malictus  





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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another 'easy' song that is tough to FC is Oye Mi Amor because of that one very rapidly repeating note near the beginning. I can hit it every once in a while, but ONLY by using both hands and alternating hands. I seriously doubt that anyone who has FC'ed that used one hand.
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TheLonging  





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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some songs that aren't even in the highest tiers that have tricky stuff to do without two hands. I use two hands only when I couldn't do it any other way. I Got You in practice I can manage how to play somewhat good/well with only one hand.
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blingdomepiece  





Joined: 03 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

malictus wrote:
Another 'easy' song that is tough to FC is Oye Mi Amor because of that one very rapidly repeating note near the beginning. I can hit it every once in a while, but ONLY by using both hands and alternating hands. I seriously doubt that anyone who has FC'ed that used one hand.


I agree. I remember someone (wulfe?) mentioning that it's effectively a single-note tremolo and that when something like that comes up in real piano you would use one finger from each hand and alternate.
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TheLonging  





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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that the same as those grace notes things?
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AshleyWilis wrote:
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