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Smeddy24
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1778
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 Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Pas26 wrote: | Before I start: assholes who clearly state their opinion as fact and acting like total jerks don't have a place in a debate. Try to convince me using varied arguments, not by saying "durr hurr different games". Obviously I can't stop you from thinking that your opinion is fact, but refrain from clearly stating it and instead try to convert me to your "facts". Thank you.
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Fact: The are differences between different games.
Fact: Those differences can include changes to the engine.
Fact: Engine changes can change the skills required to FC a song. (see: GH1, RB1XV Sabotage)
Fact: There is no way for us to know if two engines are the same.
I think those are all pretty obvious, don't you? The last one is probably the least obvious, but it does make sense. There are so many things going on in the code of the game that don't necessarily make evident changes.
The conclusion, based on those four facts, is that changing games changes the skillset required to fc songs. I'm not going to say there's only an issue when you take something into an "easier" engine because that's really rather subjective. See also: I believe it was Echelar who identified precision mode as a cheat in GH3. It's sort of tangentially related, but I do think he has/had an excellent grasp on the topic. The point is whenever you're changing games, you are changing the skillset required.
It gets a bit more sticky when we talk about what it means to get a(n) FGFC. Do you have to FC all songs in the original engine, or just FC all the songs? Based on the above conclusion (again, look at examples like GH1, Sabotage Vox) you're using different skills if you do it in a game other than the game it originally came with. If you don't have a RB1 score list on this website that's got percent and streak all in green, I don't see why you're saying you FC'd RB1.
Patches: An obvious extension to the above conclusion is that different patches make for different games. If we can't know whether or not the engine is the same, we can't know if different skills are required in different versions of the same game. Clearly, that's just ridiculous, and we have to draw a line somewhere, right?
I don't think so. I think, and yes, this is ridiculous, but if you want to go out and claim a v1.0.0 RB1 GGaHT FC (and can prove it), you're welcome to that title. You just have to realize that you're kind of crazy, and not expect people to care about it (compared to a RB1 GGaHT FC). Importantly, because we have no mechanism to select which patch of the game to use, it's beyond our control. My rule of thumb? If you can upload it to Score Hero under its original game, that's what counts. The developers have been reluctant (or were when I followed the community closely) to make major changes to the engine via patch because it fucks with leaderboards, so that does do a little something to assuage any fears there, I guess.
Note: I guarantee this completely contradicts something I said in the past. If you want to look up my posts from late 2008 and my activity in #scorehero from around that time, you should be able to find me saying that a RB2V Sabotage FC should count towards a RB1VFGFC. It's been two years; I've changed my opinion on the matter, largely because I thought about the facts above.
TL;DR: FARTZ FARTZ FARTZ
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ace5993
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 1920
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Pas26 wrote: | | PiemanLK wrote: | | bclare wrote: | | Well then we disagree. I just don't see the rationale behind forcing someone to use a harder engine, which in a certain sense is broken, in that it doesn't work the way the game designers really intended. |
Well, no one's forcing anyone to do anything. You CAN FC GGaHT on RB3 and it's still an impressive accomplishment. It's just not technically an RB1 on-dic FC. Even if you did it on RB2, it's still not an RB1 on-disc FC. It's an RB1 imports FC on another game. It's not like we want people to use RB1 and not use RB3 when RB3 strumming actually works the way it's supposed to, but you can't claim it as an RB1 on-disc FC if you do. |
No one claimed a RB1 on disc FGFC. They claimed the RB1 FGFC, which, depending on how you see the term, either means that you have FCed all the songs that are in the game OR FCed every songs using this specific game. Some people see a game like a setlist and other like a material CD that needs to be FCed. |
Pretty much this. No one has ever claimed a guitar RB1 on disc FGFC because it hasn't happened. You were trying to tell me that we were not arguing over the definition of FGFC in the other thread, yet that is exactly what we are/were doing. As I said, no one has ever claimed a RB1 on disc FGFC, so if we aren't arguing the definition of FGFC can you please explain to me what exactly we are arguing about? |
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Pas26
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 3664
Location: Québec, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Smeddy24 wrote: | | facts then opinions based on facts |
Thank you. This is what I'm looking for.
I still disagree with you since PAL vs NTSC also require a different skillset. Going out of it's way and pay 250+$ to get a PAL 360 + games is ok, but importing it into a game with an easier engine is not? FCing GGaHT on RB2 also uses a different skillset, but strike's and ukog's FC of the song (I don't remember if strike claimed RB1FGFC) didn't cause much controversy.
Also, instead of bashing people for using the acronym RB1FGFC, people should praise the one who gets the RB1FGFC on disk. Giving more recognition to a certain group makes more sense than keeping one (That will get larger) from using this term.
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MasterNobody
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 2791
Location: Duxbury, MA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not going to inject my own opinion into this thread, because I think it's all pretty much been said already.
I think what is important here is that we just have SOME official, mod-created definition for "Full Game FC" and "Full Series FC" because these terms have become as important to SH as "FC" and the like lately. If we have actual definitions for these things, like we (mostly) have for Full Combo and certainly have for 5-star and such, than it will eliminate so many arguments that are just totally unproductive and harmful to the community.
Also, are we only discussing the term "FGFC" in terms of guitar/bass in this thread, or is this supposed to be about all FGFCs? If so, this should be moved to Misc. RB Game discussion, or maybe Website Discussion.
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ace5993
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 1920
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| MasterNobody wrote: | | I think what is important here is that we just have SOME official, mod-created definition for "Full Game FC" and "Full Series FC" because these terms have become as important to SH as "FC" and the like lately. If we have actual definitions for these things, like we (mostly) have for Full Combo and certainly have for 5-star and such, than it will eliminate so many arguments that are just totally unproductive and harmful to the community. |
I totally agree with this but I don't see it happening. |
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gladiators16
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
Posts: 954
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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FGFC = every song FCed from the game and it doesn't matter which game it was done in. Except if songs weren't carried over in the imports (Enter Sandman, Paranoid, Run to the Hills) they need to be FCed on the original game as well obviously
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fudrick
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2372
Location: Orlando, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Davers wrote: | | I consider it a FGFC. As long as it's in the same game. The engines are the same minus the fact the refresh rate is lower. |
Difference between NTSC and PAL: strum limit. Difference between RB1 and RB3: strum limit. And hyperspeed, but that's irrelevant to the situation that prompted the creation of this thread.
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FC Goals: GH1 - 46 [43] | GH2 - 64 [63] | GH80's - 30 [29] | GH3 - 70 [68] | GHA - 41 [00] | GHWT - 85 [00] | GHM - 48 [10] | GHSH - 47 [00] | RB2 - 84 [02]
   
  
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voidedalive2x 
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 7922
Location: jefferson city, MO
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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One point I'd like to add about DLC: You could actually say they have a home engine. Like, DLC released in RB1's time would technically have to be FCed on that engine, DLC in RB2 would have to be FCed on RB2's engine, etc.
I know the consensus about this has already been chosen, but I just wanted to point that out.
Pas: I believe Strike claimed the 1st NTSC GGaHT FC, but not RB1 GGaHT FC. I know Ukog did it on NTSC later, but IIRC Strike did it first.
fudrick: Okay, I won't argue that, but remind me, isn't the PAL360 supposedly harder than NTSCPS2, or am I mixing this up?
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Pas26
Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 3664
Location: Québec, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Both of them did it on PAL.
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PD527 
Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 657
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| gladiators16 wrote: | | FGFC = every song FCed from the game and it doesn't matter which game it was done in. Except if songs weren't carried over in the imports (Enter Sandman, Paranoid, Run to the Hills) they need to be FCed on the original game as well obviously |
This gentleman and I share the same opinions on this topic.
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Davers
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 4619
Location: In a van down by the river
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| fudrick wrote: | | Davers wrote: | | I consider it a FGFC. As long as it's in the same game. The engines are the same minus the fact the refresh rate is lower. |
Difference between NTSC and PAL: strum limit. Difference between RB1 and RB3: strum limit. And hyperspeed, but that's irrelevant to the situation that prompted the creation of this thread. |
When it comes to NTSC and PAL for the same game, SH seems to consider them one and the same. It's actually pretty difficult when it comes to the RB side of things because all 3 games are similar in so many areas  GH makes it so much more obvious when it comes to these things because there were SO MANY changes. lol |
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fudrick
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2372
Location: Orlando, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| voidedalive2x wrote: | | One point I'd like to add about DLC: You could actually say they have a home engine. Like, DLC released in RB1's time would technically have to be FCed on that engine, DLC in RB2 would have to be FCed on RB2's engine, etc. |
This is definitely a valid point, IMO.
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FC Goals: GH1 - 46 [43] | GH2 - 64 [63] | GH80's - 30 [29] | GH3 - 70 [68] | GHA - 41 [00] | GHWT - 85 [00] | GHM - 48 [10] | GHSH - 47 [00] | RB2 - 84 [02]
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eddaket 
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 2020
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:24 am Post subject: |
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I don't know if this has been brought up, but it's something I feel should be brought up regarding PAL and NTSC.
If you have a PAL game and an NTSC game, there is no difference between the engines. Absolutely zero. The games are essentially identical, except one is originally set to be played on 50 Hz, and one is set to be played on 60 Hz. The engines cannot be considered to be different because we can use NTSC games to play on PAL (which if the two engines were different, then the game would have two engines built into it, which would in turn mean you are FCing it on an engine given by the game).
This is why I believe FCing it all on NTSC except one song and then FCing the last song on PAL is a FGFC. It's the same game and same engine. Just different way the console displays them. |
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voidedalive2x
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 7922
Location: jefferson city, MO
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Pas26 wrote: | | Both of them did it on PAL. |
Strike re-FCed it on RB2 NTSC, IIRC. They both originally did it on PAL, though.
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ace5993
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 1920
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| voidedalive2x wrote: | | Pas26 wrote: | | Both of them did it on PAL. |
Strike re-FCed it on RB2 NTSC, IIRC. They both originally did it on PAL, though. |
You do not remember correctly. GGaHT has not been FCd on NTSC. Also, either NTSC PS2 is harder than PAL 360, or they are equal. PAL 360 is definitely NOT harder than NTSC PS2 though. |
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