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Using the wiki for song-specific techniques
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Mischlings  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject: Using the wiki for song-specific techniques Reply with quote

I hope that title got across the main point I wanted to get to in this post.

Basically, I was recently thinking about how hard it can be to find help with specific songs. If I wanted help with, say, figuring out the sticking for a weird fill in a song, the only way to do it so far is to make a topic for it on the forums.

My thought was using song pages (or pages linked to the song pages) to cover techniques. For example, let's say that I want some help with the song Bat Country. I could go to the page for the song, click on a link that leads me to "DrumTechniques" (or something similarly named), and it would give methods to hit fills such as the RYBOBYRORYBOBYRO fill in the solo that gives everyone hell. If I needed help with the Guitar Solo, I could instead click on "GuitarTechniques" (or, again, something similarly named) and get methods to hit the weird strumming in the solo or any difficult pattern that I don't remember at the moment.

Basically, I know that there is a lot of information in the heads of people on this site. They know a lot of techniques to hit pretty much every part of every song, but it's currently locked in their heads. There's no precedent to put information like that on the wiki, and there's no other compilation of this information other than what's in the TS&G section pages. I think the wiki format would be perfect to allow people to collect as much of this information as possible, the problem being that no one is doing so.

Did I miss something that says that the wiki isn't to be used for this purpose? If I did, why is that the case? It just seems like a waste to not have information like that easily available, and the wiki format is perfect for sharing that kind of information.

Does anyone agree with me that the wiki should contain information like this?
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voidedalive2x  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is the Compehensive list of guides on the wiki, but that's for the GH side, and I don't think there's been a list for the RB side made.

Also, there has been (have been?) a thread wondering if it would be possible to have links in the song pages to guide threads pertaining to that song. Lemme check and see if I can find it here.

EDIT: This is similar to what you're looking for, I think.. You could look it over and see if that might help.
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qirex  
 




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mischlings - I think that including chart-specific technique is a wonderful use for the song pages on the wiki. There's no reason they need to be limited to path information -- any other information about the specific song/chart would certainly be appropriate and welcome.
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Mischlings  
 




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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing that would bother me about starting this (I'd definitely contribute to it when I could) is whether or not other people would contribute, as well. The wiki isn't really known as a place to find anything but paths, so a lot of people probably wouldn't know to go there to find it or to add to it, so I get the feeling that it might end up almost as an abandoned project with few people working on it, and I'm not sure how to fix that.
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BobDole  
 




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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely like this idea and would contribute to it periodically. As you probably remember (since you contributed some stuff to it), I had a thread specifically for hard parts long ago, but the suspension of my old YouTube account permanently killed it (about 90% of the videos in the thread were my own, and none of them are watch-able anymore).

Anyway, I think I am generally pretty good at coming up with methods for hard sections, as I haven't resorted to making or even searching for the so-called "method threads" in a very long time (I think I've only ever made one, and I only read them out of curiosity and to possibly help others). I can pretty much always come up with a good method myself even if I'm not good enough to hit the section on full speed (although usually I don't bother working with sections that I don't at least THINK I could potentially FC on full speed). Hell I came up with a workable method for the ending of Tastes Like Kevin Bacon inside of 5 minutes, I just couldn't execute it on full speed because my fingers aren't fast enough. However, I'm absolutely positive that the method I came up with would work for people with enough skill.

I probably would not frequently write in those kinds of methods though, both because I don't know that many of them and because it's not totally "valid" if I haven't hit the section in question on full speed. If anybody actually WANTS to see my Tastes Like Kevin Bacon outro method I will post it, but with the disclaimer that I can't hit the section above 80%. This goes for any other section that I have a logical method for but haven't hit on full speed due to lack of sufficient skill.

I can provide lots of methods for sections that I can hit though, which would be fully confident, this DOES work type of methods. This Don't Tell Me You Love Me 'lolsolo' (aka Guitar Solo 1C, the hard part) method is the most recent "interesting" method that I've worked out; I also have a rather interesting method for Run to the Hills's solo (the RB1 cover). I'll try to get around to adding in the Don't Tell Me You Love Me method (with a detailed explanation, not just the video) tonight.


On second thought, I REALLY like this idea...how fucking cool would it be if someday (say a year from now or so) one could go search for pretty much any hard or moderately hard song on the Wiki and find methods for the trouble spots within said song? Like let's say I needed help with Electric Eye in Guitar Hero 80s...I could just search it on the Wiki and find some methods for the solo. That would be SO COOL.

Also I will try to make my contribution to this a regular thing...like maybe at a specific time each week I will contribute at least one method, possibly more. I'm a DLC whore and a moderately good player that likes to FC lots of stuff, so I can just pick through my own FC lists and write in methods that I used for certain FCs.
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voidedalive2x  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My question is, how would this be organized? Will there be freticons for the parts, or will there be links to guides for each section (either on here or on YT)?

Like, say we're going through Red Devil. Would there be section-by-section parts, with links to parts in each section, kinda like this:

Intro:
*insert site and video links*

Verse 1:
*insert site and video links*

etc.
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BobDole  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, well I WAS going to demonstrate a way to format it, but something has cropped up that irritates me quite a bit...

Apparently I can't edit the song pages because I don't have any contribution points. I'm sorry but that pisses me the fuck off. I wanted to write up a detailed description of my Don't Tell Me You Love Me solo method tonight, but I can't because of this annoying system that blocks me from editing the page.

Why don't I have any contribution points? Well because I don't donate money to ScoreHero (and even if I wanted to I couldn't; don't own a credit card) and I've never been into proving cutoffs. Is that such a crime?

Anyway you only need 5 points...so I'm going to look into getting that with cutoff proofs. I've never tried it before, but hopefully I can manage to get 5 points that way (I can't do it with a monetary donation since I don't have a credit card). If not...well then I guess I won't be able to contribute any of my methods to the Wiki. Amazing.


By the way, this post was going to be MUCH more venomous, but I dialed it back quite a bit before I submitted it. Seriously, I am pissed about this. It just feels totally unfair.


EDIT: Fortunately, getting 5 contribution points through cutoff proofs looks very possible for me without wasting time learning how to get exact scores due to the fact that you don't have to get exact scores to get contribution points and that lots of songs on Guitar Hero Aerosmith expert on PS3 still have wide ranges. As a result, I will suck it up and attempt to narrow some cutoffs that nobody cares about in order to earn the right to contribute to this wonderful idea that Mischlings has.

EDIT 2: I have written down the 5 songs that I plan to narrow cutoffs for and the amount that I have to narrow them by in order to get a point for each. Hopefully I'll be done with this by the end of tomorrow so I can start to help make the Wiki song pages less useless.

EDIT 3: OK, I'm a little less pissed about it now that I realize it's actually really easy to narrow some of these cutoffs (I guess I should be glad I'm dealing with the lesser-played PS3 versions of GH3 and GHA). I've already submitted proofs for 2 songs that should award me with 1 point each (you still get the point even if you need 2 of your own scores to narrow the cutoff by the requisite percentage...right?) Hopefully these are still approved quickly (even though it seems that pretty much nobody has cared about them since 2008 judging by the timestamps I saw in there) so I can start working on adding methods to the Wiki. I can't wait.
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ricecake  
 




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember seeing a post from Barfo explaining how to get the maximum contribution points for proving cutoffs. I can't find it now, but basically you shoot for a score that is right on the edge of the range that would give you a contribution point, so that you don't narrow the cutoff too much each time.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I did my part by sufficiently narrowing the 5-star cutoffs for the following songs:

Take This Life
Sabotage
Combination
Pink
Bright Light Fright

About how long should I expect to wait before I am credited with my 5 contribution points? Because I'm definitely ready to start editing in methods. I made a pretty sick Rust In Peace Solo 2 method last night.

Quote:
I remember seeing a post from Barfo explaining how to get the maximum contribution points for proving cutoffs. I can't find it now, but basically you shoot for a score that is right on the edge of the range that would give you a contribution point, so that you don't narrow the cutoff too much each time.


I understand what you're saying, but I only need 5 points (I am ONLY getting them so that I can edit the Wiki; I have absolutely no other motive), so I don't really need to worry about trying to maximize my contribution points. I'm not interested in learning how to get exact scores, and I certainly didn't need to be painstakingly exact in order to do what I did with the cutoffs for those 5 songs. I have the utmost respect for the people that are capable of exactly proving cutoffs/getting exact scores, but I'm just not interested in becoming one of them.



EDIT: Mischlings, I don't know if you realize this but you're going to have to get 1 more contribution point in order to help with your own idea (according to the rankings you have 4, all from proofs).

This goes for everyone else who wants to help too: You need to somehow get 5 points in order to help. This is fortunately not hard to do. You can either narrow the ranges of 5 cutoffs (make sure you read and understand these guidelines to ensure that you get credit for your proofs) or if you're capable of doing so you can simply donate $5 (which will give you 6 points and a little star by your name).
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Mischlings  
 




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually have the ability to edit the song pages -- there was something you could do a while back (don't know if you still can) that involved filling out a form and there was a chance that you'd be accepted, without having to go through the thing with contribution points. I have no idea how to find it or if it's still going, however.

I'm still interested in using the wiki for methods, but unfortunately haven't had the time -- summer classes, final was today, move out tomorrow, move again in a week, things like that -- so I haven't done anything with this.

Your idea about being able to search for ANY song would be my ultimate goal with this -- that is the kind of thing that I expect Scorehero to have, but since they don't yet, why not get it started?

As for formatting, I was thinking there would be one page for each instrument, then each section would be separate.

Example:

Hammerhead (4 links below are on main song page)
Guitar Techniques
Bass Techniques
Drum Techniques
Vocal Techniques

Click on Drum Techniques page

Link to split-screen FC video

Intro
(Drum freticons of the section)
(Sticking for section)

Main Riff
(Drum freticons of the section)
(Sticking for section)
(Separate section for alternate sticking of ORRR(OR)RRR(OG) fill (and any other fills or tough parts in whatever section))

Verse 1
(Drum freticons of the section)
(Sticking for section)
(Link to FC of individual section)

Now, some of that was specific to Hammerhead, some of it is more generic, but I think you get the idea. And so on and so forth throughout the entire song. Obviously, this would be a TON of work, but wikis make it more possible by distributing the workload around to various people. I'd probably do more for drums at the moment, since I've focused more on those and left guitar on the backburner.

What do you think of my idea for formatting? Obviously, I know this will be a ton of work, but thorough is good in my mind. As I implied above, I (probably) won't have a chance to do much towards putting together anything in the next week or two, but tweaking the idea before I get started can't hurt.

(Is there good support anywhere on the site for drum freticons? And any idea how to get them without doing them all by hand? Maybe someone should ask Ajanata or Kawigi?)
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BobDole  
 




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see why the links would be necessary; you could just as easily have headers for each instrument on the main song page. Most of the song pages are empty anyway (and the ones that are NOT empty don't contain any useful information whatsoever, at least not that I've seen). What else is that space going to be used for?

Also there really is no reason to try to give every section of every song recognition...that would probably end up wasting a LOT of our time and effort with something that would benefit pretty much nobody. I think a better mentality would be to think of some of your better FCs, and the methods you used to hit the hardest parts of those songs. Or just think of some of the harder sections you can hit and write in methods for those. You shouldn't have to be one of the best players on the site to contribute (although it would be cool if at least one elite player got involved and put in methods for stuff like TTFAF bridge 1 and whatnot). I guess it's kind of like those guides that people used to write, except more specific and useful. About those guides and the related method threads, it wouldn't be a bad idea to integrate those into the Wiki (not by linking though, by at the very least copy-pasting the methods onto the song page). Here's an example that should clarify my vision for the formatting of these pages.

Quote:

Screaming For Vengeance page

--Guitar (for any given song there may or may not be headings for each instrument, depending on whether the instruments in question contain anything that somebody deems worthy of writing about)

[the guitar heading should obviously be larger than the section heading(s)]

--Guitar Solo (of course this header would be titled whatever the solo is called in practice mode, but for the purposes of the example I think most of you know what part I'm talking about)

[Freticons of the descending triplets with as many methods as people want to contribute, with detailed explanations for each.]


Now I think most people will agree with me that there's really no reason to include any other sections of that song. We don't need to waste our efforts endlessly writing out methods for chord strummin' verses and choruses (how would one even go about doing that?). That's not to say there needs to be any objective criteria for what does/does not deserve to be written about...if you believe the bridge of Screaming for Vengeance guitar deserves a section (I choked an FC on it once, but it's really not hard and I personally would not choose to write about it), then by all means make one. Just make sure that it's actually useful and not just spam. Please don't try to make headings for every section of every song ever on every instrument, because that's pretty much the epitome of useless clutter.

If I could actually edit the pages I could show you guys EXACTLY how I envision these pages looking, god I can't wait until my cutoff proofs are processed (if any moderators who have the power to do that are reading this...please do it soon?). I'm really excited about this idea actually; wouldn't it be cool to play Rock 'n' Roll Dream, be surprised by the fairly difficult second solo, then be able to go to the Wiki page for the song and see methods for hitting that solo? I don't know about you guys but if we can make this kind of thing a reality, it will be one of this community's coolest accomplishments ever.
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Mischlings  
 




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, separate pages might be necessary for some songs -- something like Megadeth that will be difficult on pretty much everything, making the page quite cluttered if you have every single instrument on that page.

I'm usually a very thorough person, so I was thinking every section -- I know that it wouldn't be necessary, but this is my (admittedly, idealized) version of how this could be. No, it's not necessary, but I'm sure that some songs will need it (Caprici Di Diablo, for example).

One thing that you touched on that I think needs to be elaborated on more: detailed explanations. Don't just give a fingering/sticking -- explain it. For example, don't just list the fingering, also say "Tap the blues and oranges" or "Start the roll with your left hand right after you hit the bass" or similar explanations. I've found often that fingerings/stickings aren't always helpful because they look mostly like gibberish, and it's really hard to follow each individual note. I also like to know why the method works, not just what to do. I know this might be a lot to ask, but I think it'd help a lot more.

Also, another thing: sometimes, fingering/sticking isn't the only thing needed. Knowing how to think about the section is often the key to making it work. For example, I can't pass All I Want on drums, but it's not because of physical inability. I can play fast enough, I just don't understand the pattern. I hope that gets across what I mean by that.

Sorry if my thoughts are scattered, I'm just typing things as they come to mind.

EDIT: I was about to make a quick page (Panic Attack Solo 1A) to try and get a general idea of what it might look like, except that the wiki doesn't seem to have support for freticons. Just great.
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BobDole  
 




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, separate pages might be necessary for some songs -- something like Megadeth that will be difficult on pretty much everything, making the page quite cluttered if you have every single instrument on that page.


I have to say I believe that so long as it was formatted well, even a song that is hypothetically Caprici Di Diablo guitar-esque on every instrument (as in pretty much every section is likely to be written about) would be manageable and easy to follow. However, the pages are already heavily linked, what with the automatic overdrive path pages and all. If we can have these overdrive pages we can also have pages that are about techniques for the songs (such as Song_RB2_ScreamingForVengeance_GuitarTech or something like that). That way the song pages would just have (at maximum) four links that people could click for help on their instrument of choice. And I could actually edit pages like that right now, since they would have to be created by us, the people making this happen. Of course you or someone else would have to put the link to the page on the main song page, but this shouldn't be a big deal (it's not like I'm going to make 30 pages a day or anything). I should be able to do it myself soon anyway (c'mon process those cutoffs!)

That may sound kind of wishy-washy since I was basically thinking out loud, but in short I agree with your idea. I do think that it should be uniform...if we're going to do links to separate technique pages, that should be the way it is done every time. Of course it wouldn't be hard to adjust any hypothetically "rebellious" page to fit the "standard" format (just make the appropriate technique page(s) and cut-paste the methods written on the main song page to it).

EDIT:

Quote:
EDIT: I was about to make a quick page (Panic Attack Solo 1A) to try and get a general idea of what it might look like, except that the wiki doesn't seem to have support for freticons. Just great.


Well I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to have pages specifically for hard sections of songs, but to instead have a page for Panic Attack Guitar Techniques, which would obviously include a heading for the solo as well as possibly one for the riffage the precedes the solo. And wait seriously, the Wiki doesn't support freticons? Well that sucks...we could still include fingerings and explanations though. In the meantime it would be a good idea to try to get freticon support for the Wiki, as well as freticons specific to drums (I don't know about you but it confuses the hell out of me when people freticon out drum sections).
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Mischlings  
 




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't going to make an entire page for Panic Attack solo 1A -- I was going to add it to the Panic Attack page. We definitely need freticon support on the wiki -- trying to get the freticons on there using only the raw image files is A PAIN IN THE ASS -- it took me 10 minutes just to get the freticons to show up -- add that to the fact that I can't see them well while editing to get the fingering right... AGH! (I'm keeping this paragraph in to laugh at the fact that I'm a moron)

And I get through all of that just to discover that there is support for freticons, it just isn't as obvious that it's there as one might hope. The syntax for it is also remarkably simple. I feel quite stupid at the moment. http://wiki.scorehero.com/WikiFreticons

I think they should be separate pages, as there's little clutter on the pages and all we'd do is add a bunch of clutter that might make it look bad. You can go ahead and make the pages if you want -- if I get a chance before your contribution points go through, I'll link up the pages to the song pages.

There are specific freticons for drums, they just aren't integrated into the forums. http://wiki.scorehero.com/Freticons

I'm lazy about links -- so shoot me.

EDIT: Behold: http://wiki.scorehero.com/PanicAttackGuitarTech. I couldn't get the name Song_RB2_PanicAttack_GuitarTech to work -- seems to be a limit only allowing letters and numbers in a page name. I tried getting the fingering, but I couldn't get it to line up with the freticons. I'll work on that when I have more time. For now, a verbal description is all I have. I'm thinking that later, I'll break the section into sections for how I think about it -- that might make it easier to follow. Sorry that it's not more polished -- need to pack then sleep.
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ricecake  
 




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you've found, the wiki does support freticons:
http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=79613
http://wiki.scorehero.com/WikiFreticons

However, I like the idea of integrating the help sections on the actual song/instrument page (the one that has the paths on it). This way, it would be like a one-stop shop for the song, instead of adding a separate page for the techniques.
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