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The Official Better Than You --v Paths
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Kawigi  





Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2879
Location: Redmond, WA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:46 am    Post subject: The Official Better Than You --v Paths Reply with quote

http://rockband.yajags.com/pathshare/

Hey all you full band pathing fans. I always knew that sooner or later I'd get together all of my paths from when I was playing with my legendary RB2 band, "Better Than You --v" and share them with the world. It seems like it's about that time, since I think having niq's paths and my paths give a great opportunity for side-by-side analysis. Neither of our paths are perfect right now, there are some gems and some whiffs on either side. I'm curious how similar my paths are to niq's, actually, since I'm sure quite a few of them should be pretty similar. I know that some of them are quite different, and so far the ones I've taken a look at appear to be impossible or incorrect in various ways on niq's version, but I suspect that there are quite a few intersting and subtle things I missed.

Eventually, I'm going to build in a way to have notes on each of the paths, primarily written by me, but if you have observations, analysis, or interesting comparisons between one of my paths with niq's or with your own, share them in this thread, and if you wish, I'll include them on the site and credit you with those observations. I hope that those who also have old rusty RB2 paths sitting around will compare and contrast as well.

Also, sometime, I'll explain what the background images are on the table. In the meantime, see if you can figure them out :-)
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Deschain  





Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 2137
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Offhand, blue is % of highest possible score of any song (since Panic Attack simultaneously has the biggest blue bar and highest score), and the green/red bar is comparing BTY---v's score to the top score (or next highest, if BTY is 1st), because it looks like you're still destroying on Bodhisattva, but don't really come close to Visions 1st.

I knew I had come up with the same Where'd You Go path, that last vox pickup took Rylen a while, but it was totally worth it! Guitar didn't even FC the solo and we're still 1st by a great amount...for now. This is an invaluable resource, not only for people too lazy to path on their own, but to compare to niq's (and my own) paths, combining aspects and tweaking and emerging with the best possible path.
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bclare  





Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 6048
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting... it's great that you're putting these up though.

Just glanced at Where'd You Go? since thats the path I remember the most from practicing in band for PAX with niq (and coincidentally, Deschain subbed in for guitar for us one time we were practicing and ended up with I think 1.798m). Your path for it gives about 10k more than niq's, but the bass activations seem nearly identical; I think niq's path has bass activate a couple beats earlier on the second activation though (around m38)
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NfskMjmMal2  





Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 1000

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love how you have to intentionally overhit in an overdrive phrase on Painkiller...

And also, do these paths assume the drummer is with BNS, without BNS, or does it not matter?

For that matter, I'm not even sure what the difference is between BNS and not, besides that the fills appear in different places. Not exactly sure how though...
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Kawigi  





Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2879
Location: Redmond, WA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NfskMjmMal2 wrote:
I love how you have to intentionally overhit in an overdrive phrase on Painkiller...

And also, do these paths assume the drummer is with BNS, without BNS, or does it not matter?

For that matter, I'm not even sure what the difference is between BNS and not, besides that the fills appear in different places. Not exactly sure how though...


BowlZ, BTY--v's drummer, doesn't use BNS for drums (or at least didn't at the time), so there may be additional fills that show up occasionally that I don't note in the paths.
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bclare  





Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 6048
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NfskMjmMal2 wrote:
I love how you have to intentionally overhit in an overdrive phrase on Painkiller...

And also, do these paths assume the drummer is with BNS, without BNS, or does it not matter?

For that matter, I'm not even sure what the difference is between BNS and not, besides that the fills appear in different places. Not exactly sure how though...


OD fills for drums can't appear immediately after you pick up a sufficient OD phrase, there's a slight break (so that you don't have notes disappear into a fill because you just got OD). Since BNS scrolls faster, the fills can appear sooner, and so that can change the paths and optimal scores. I think that's about the gist of it?
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Kawigi  





Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2879
Location: Redmond, WA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bclare wrote:
NfskMjmMal2 wrote:
I love how you have to intentionally overhit in an overdrive phrase on Painkiller...

And also, do these paths assume the drummer is with BNS, without BNS, or does it not matter?

For that matter, I'm not even sure what the difference is between BNS and not, besides that the fills appear in different places. Not exactly sure how though...


OD fills for drums can't appear immediately after you pick up a sufficient OD phrase, there's a slight break (so that you don't have notes disappear into a fill because you just got OD). Since BNS scrolls faster, the fills can appear sooner, and so that can change the paths and optimal scores. I think that's about the gist of it?


Yep. More specifically, if there's a fill that comes between about .8 and 1.2 seconds after the drummer gets 1/2 a meter of OD, it probably won't be highlighted in the path, but may actually show up (depending, possibly, on whether the drummer relies on a unison bonus to get to half and what the network lag is like for getting that unison bonus if it is necessary).
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BZeta  





Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 31
Location: Morgantown WV

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is really cool. I was wondering how that Ace of Spades path went. And for the record, that next highest score is MINE.
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Kawigi  





Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2879
Location: Redmond, WA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BZeta wrote:
This is really cool. I was wondering how that Ace of Spades path went. And for the record, that next highest score is MINE.


One time, I saw some band saying they wanted to get some really hard FBFCs, and I think they used Ace of Spades, Painkiller and Teen Age Riot as examples. So I asked "Why would anyone want to FBFC Ace of Spades or Painkiller?" :-)
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Organizer, Vocalist and path factory for Season 9 League Champion band Barre Exam (RB1) and cofounder of Season 10 League Champion band Better Than You --v (RB2) - The #1 band on scorehero
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Drum Paths | Star Cutoffs | Scoring Data for Pathing | Notes and Lyrics for Vocalists
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the1and0nly1  





Joined: 03 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know 0.8 seconds and 1.2 seconds are the cutoff times for fills on drums in quickplay... but with a full band, are these times affected at all?
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Kawigi  





Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2879
Location: Redmond, WA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the1and0nly1 wrote:
I know 0.8 seconds and 1.2 seconds are the cutoff times for fills on drums in quickplay... but with a full band, are these times affected at all?


There's a chance that they are slightly shorter. I don't know if research/experimentation has really been done in that area. But experience shows that if it's not the same, it's pretty close. A good example is the m46 fill in Give It All, which I'm pretty sure didn't show up for BowlZ (at 1.15 seconds after the unison bonus) but did look like it appeared to blob and chidori, who were playing bass and guitar with BNS on (remember, seeing a fill on the drum track online doesn't mean the drummer can see it :-) ).
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Organizer, Vocalist and path factory for Season 9 League Champion band Barre Exam (RB1) and cofounder of Season 10 League Champion band Better Than You --v (RB2) - The #1 band on scorehero
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Drum Paths | Star Cutoffs | Scoring Data for Pathing | Notes and Lyrics for Vocalists
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niq24601  





Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 323

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:00 am    Post subject: Re: The Official Better Than You --v Paths Reply with quote

Kawigi wrote:
http://rockband.yajags.com/pathshare/

Hey all you full band pathing fans. I always knew that sooner or later I'd get together all of my paths from when I was playing with my legendary RB2 band, "Better Than You --v" and share them with the world. It seems like it's about that time, since I think having niq's paths and my paths give a great opportunity for side-by-side analysis. Neither of our paths are perfect right now


Thanks for egging me into fixing my stuff . I will fix the various bugs I have and re-run the on-disc paths this weekend (I think the only big ones I have left are impossible RS detection and the bogus whammy problem).
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MasterNobody  





Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 2791
Location: Duxbury, MA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawigi, you are awesome. I think an I <3 Kawigi banner needs to be made. Can't wait to check these out!
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niq24601  





Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 323

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bclare wrote:
Interesting... it's great that you're putting these up though.

Just glanced at Where'd You Go? since thats the path I remember the most from practicing in band for PAX with niq (and coincidentally, Deschain subbed in for guitar for us one time we were practicing and ended up with I think 1.798m). Your path for it gives about 10k more than niq's, but the bass activations seem nearly identical; I think niq's path has bass activate a couple beats earlier on the second activation though (around m38)


My guess is almost all of the difference is due to better use of OD in bridge B. The rest is probably proper guitar squeezing in the guitar solo. Anything beyond that is probably whammy estimation error.

Kawigi & I have compared a couple of paths and an he was able to come close to what the autopather came up with very often. He even got the part of the Drain You path that involves not whammying to avoid chaining OD (but he missed elsewhere in that song ^_^).

There are three things I noticed Rocktimizer (or should that be Rockptimizer ... hmm) doing that I thought went against what human beings might do:

(1) having guitar/bass dropping out of OD right before a unison bonus and then come back in a few measures later, if the measures right after the UB are lower scoring. Kawigi got several of these right (HLTW, Drain You), but missed others (Panic Attack).
(2) if you have a high-scoring section of the song and either guitar or bass has a lot of whammy, the best thing to do is have the whole section be in 6x instead of half of it in 2x and half of it in 8x. This falls vaguely under the "minimize the amount of time with 2x OD" rule but it leads to somewhat strange path.
(3) Vocal scoring is important, but not that important. Slow vocal phrases (longer than 8 BEATS) are low-scoring enough that if the instrumental section has a lot of notes it's better to activate there. This is true both in CoB (where the Rocktimizer thinks vocalist should activate at the start of the buildup even though they're done singing) and Panic Attack (vox shouldn't activate in "Helpless hysteria/ the false sense of urgency" and instead save it for the outro).

All in all I have been really impressed with how close to optimal people managed to get. I'll be more curious what the results are when I'm done fixing things.
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The Rocktimizer: RB2 Full Band Optimal Paths

"gay" and "rape". You keep on using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
singemfrc wrote:
When I got GHWoR at midnight the guy behind me was there to buy a copy of Iron Man 2 on Blu Ray and midnight. Buying a movie at midnight release? Wow, so I didn't feel like the biggest loser
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Kawigi  





Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2879
Location: Redmond, WA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

niq24601 wrote:
bclare wrote:
Interesting... it's great that you're putting these up though.

Just glanced at Where'd You Go? since thats the path I remember the most from practicing in band for PAX with niq (and coincidentally, Deschain subbed in for guitar for us one time we were practicing and ended up with I think 1.798m). Your path for it gives about 10k more than niq's, but the bass activations seem nearly identical; I think niq's path has bass activate a couple beats earlier on the second activation though (around m38)


My guess is almost all of the difference is due to better use of OD in bridge B. The rest is probably proper guitar squeezing in the guitar solo. Anything beyond that is probably whammy estimation error.

Kawigi & I have compared a couple of paths and an he was able to come close to what the autopather came up with very often. He even got the part of the Drain You path that involves not whammying to avoid chaining OD (but he missed elsewhere in that song ^_^).

There are three things I noticed Rocktimizer (or should that be Rockptimizer ... hmm) doing that I thought went against what human beings might do:

(1) having guitar/bass dropping out of OD right before a unison bonus and then come back in a few measures later, if the measures right after the UB are lower scoring. Kawigi got several of these right (HLTW, Drain You), but missed others (Panic Attack).
(2) if you have a high-scoring section of the song and either guitar or bass has a lot of whammy, the best thing to do is have the whole section be in 6x instead of half of it in 2x and half of it in 8x. This falls vaguely under the "minimize the amount of time with 2x OD" rule but it leads to somewhat strange path.
(3) Vocal scoring is important, but not that important. Slow vocal phrases (longer than 8 BEATS) are low-scoring enough that if the instrumental section has a lot of notes it's better to activate there. This is true both in CoB (where the Rocktimizer thinks vocalist should activate at the start of the buildup even though they're done singing) and Panic Attack (vox shouldn't activate in "Helpless hysteria/ the false sense of urgency" and instead save it for the outro).

All in all I have been really impressed with how close to optimal people managed to get. I'll be more curious what the results are when I'm done fixing things.


I think there are places where the paths are fundamentally similar but I favor the easier path to execute at the cost of some points (I think there's one such difference in Drain You, before the point where they actually diverge). It's actually pretty interesting how similar a good number of the paths are, though. At least in the few paths I've looked at so far without being prodded first (because when I'm prodded, it probably means there's something strange about niq's path relative to mine or in general), I have found pretty good evidence that I'm a robot.

Things for niq to double check besides the stuff that you specifically mentioned (you might have already gotten this stuff, too, though):
Checking length of sustains for scoring purposes (if you do it in a different place than you do for checking whammy, I know I do).
Points under the BRE shouldn't be counted for anything.
You can't activate OD between two percussion phrases. Also, while it probably only makes a difference occasionally, I think the phrase marker should be used instead of first/last note times on percussion phrases when determining if an activation window appears (an example of a false positive on ajanata's charts is at least one and maybe both versions of Limelight doesn't let you activate before the guitar solo, not that you'd want to anyways).

Edit:
A lot of guitar/bass activations seem to be just 1 or 2 beats long for no obvious reason. Perhaps it's just rounding, but I'll making note of obvious weird ones as I go through my analyses. Also, the 3rd guitar activation in Hungry Like the Wolf is too long, I think the sustain time in the GYB chord before the OD phrase must be getting counted for whammy.
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Organizer, Vocalist and path factory for Season 9 League Champion band Barre Exam (RB1) and cofounder of Season 10 League Champion band Better Than You --v (RB2) - The #1 band on scorehero
Kawigi's Rock Band Projects
Drum Paths | Star Cutoffs | Scoring Data for Pathing | Notes and Lyrics for Vocalists
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