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DrSham  





Joined: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 1233
Location: Hallett Cove, South Australia

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave0113 wrote:
Not sure if this is the right place to post this or not but if anyone currently has extra points they are not using I would strongly suggest contributing them to getting Push Push (Lady Lightning) up for scoretracking. I already donated my 7 points towards it, but it still needs another 206 points to be activated. If this is the wrong place to post this let me know and I will make a post in the right place.


As with Barfo, I've got loads of contribution points knocking around from my proofing days so..................it's done.

Enjoy!
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ManfredvonKarma  





Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 3783
Location: Toms River, NJ

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this idea, I'm just not liking the numbers on it.

JCirri owns RhythmAuthors and ScoreHero. It's in his best interest business-wise to keep the free advertising that score-tracking allows down to mostly the tracks that will make him money. So, in spirit, I agree with this system.

However, there are two flaws that I see:
First is the cost. 250 points per song is a bit high at this point. I'm not sure how the points are split up, but I suspect that a large number of the points that the community holds are in the hands of GH-only players. This means that a large number of points will continue to sit unused, unless we can convince GH players to help us out. 250 points would be fine if there were more ways to earn points (all due respect to Barfo, but not everyone can feasible work proofs in GH3/GHA). The way I see it, 150 points would work better at the moment (until the long-rumored RB proof system gets implemented).

Second, is that there should probably be a way for some non-RA songs to be automatically tracked. I understand that JCirri is running a business, but allowing for say one of every twenty non-RA songs to be tracked for free (with songs determined via polling) wouldn't cut into things too deeply. These tracks would likely wind up being old standbys (Push Push, Trippolette, Even Rats, and the like), and would help balance things out until there are more readily available methods to earn points.
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iammax  





Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 438
Location: Westchester, NY

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Needs Tripolette, too. I bet that's the highest bought song.
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JCirri  





Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 4576

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the viewpoints and discussion on this. There's good points on both sides and while it's still a bit early, I think we can agree that 250 points with no alternative methods to enable songs or earn points is currently on the high end.

We are brainstorming possible solutions that involve some of the ideas mentioned here. We may or may not drop the cost, but I could very well see a system that combines contribution-based enabling with something else to involve everyone and guarantee that at least a subset of the most popular songs will be tracked for free.

Ultimately we wanted a system that (for the most part) forces a community effort to get songs enabled; but to still not close the door to anyone, regardless of status, to have the ability to use SH to promote music (whether its their own band, a client of another group, or simply one SH member's favorite song).

As more and more songs become tracked, the focus for competition and overall value/usefulness on any particular one is reduced (not just RA songs, but other community-enabled ones as well). This already happens to an extent with official DLC, and my fear with RBN is having such a huge list of songs available that everyone knows about but never bothers going through anymore, since the relevancy to them is incredibly minimal.

I do think it's a good thing to draw eyes across other content to help raise awareness, so I wouldn't really want to have a way to checkoff which songs you own as it would eliminate that aspect for people to naturally come across new material. But there needs to be some focus so it's not overwhelming.

Basically I'm just posting now to let you know we're listening and thinking about ideas for improvement. Collaboration is a great thing, and please continue to share your thoughts.

In the meantime I am glad to see some people working together and songs being enabled! We'll probably start a sticky soon for people to show support for their favorite tracks and organize efforts for collecting points.
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Carungi  





Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 2216
Location: Phoenix, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

blingdomepiece wrote:
Here's a suggestion I kind of hate but could still work:

Give people 1 contribution point every time they submit a score for a RA-authored song for which they previously had no scores. Maybe limit this to 1 per instrument if you are worried about people submitting for each difficulty.

Pro: SH wants RA "clients" to have an advantage: more people will buy your songs so they can get points to unlock the songs they actually want (haha)

Pro: instead of contributing $20 here to get 40 points, I can buy 20 songs and submit 80 scores and get 80 points.

Con: somebody has to actually code this including preventing exploits.

I like this idea. It's simple, promotes RA sponsored songs and gives users on the RB side a way to gain points without having to buy a GH related item.

Simple way to solve the con here is to make picture proof required in order to gain points for submitting RA-authored songs. One point per instrument, no matter the difficulty they choose. 4 points a song per user. Reduce the amount of points required for a song to go up in score-tracking (say 150). Keep it community based. The people get score tracking for the songs they want. RA gets sales. Everyone is happy.
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BigZ7337  





Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 2022
Location: Williamsport, PA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I entered all of my drum scores, although it was very disappointing to only enter 11 scores, 61 of them are still stored in my camera.
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Kawigi  





Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2879
Location: Redmond, WA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a few proposals that primarily benefit me:


  1. We should start some kind of community project to accurately determine star cutoffs. Once we determine that this project has already been completed, I should be awarded one contribution point for star cutoff that I calculate. That's 3135 for each 4-part song and 627 for each 3-part song, for each platform on which it's relevant. Then I unlock whatever songs I deem appropriate.
  2. We could award contribution points for contributing paths to the path wiki. I call drums. I should be up to around 14000 right now.
  3. I could set up my projects for RBN, and I could include RA songs in exchange for 250 contribution points each. I could even do the data extraction myself, just for you, and give you your own subsection of the site. Maybe I'd make another section for other RBN songs, and let them submit their songs with data, possibly for free, since they'll have to buy their own contribution points from you already.


I'm willing to be democratic, though, which of these programs does everyone prefer?

Understanding, of course, that the post up to this point isn't really useful, or meant to be taken literally. I actually don't categorically disagree with the idea. I think it's reasonable for community members or (especially) RBN authors to pay (in time or cash) to have songs included for score-tracking, and there's an inherent value to being included, as long as there are enough included for people to be interested in tracking their scores for non-RA songs. I assume there is an assumption that it will reach some relevant critical mass sometimes reasonably soon. My gut reaction is the same as most others - that the cost is too much, and that we've still never been given the opportunity to do proofs in the games of our choice.

Not being able to earn contribution points by doing proofs for Rock Band has only been a mild complaint up until now, though, since they only really seemed useful for getting more band slots. Now this "side" (and no, it's not that everyone plays either RB or GH and not both, but you have to admit that most people emphasize one side or the other) has way more demand for points and has also been ignored in terms of non-monetary means of getting those points for the last few years.

On the other hand, I don't think that's the point. I suspect one of two things will happen in general for non-RA songs to get enabled for score tracking:

First, RBN authors will pay directly to have their songs enabled for score tracking, because being included will help their tracks sell better. It's quite possible that the effect of this exposure will be enough to make up the cost, but it's also reasonably likely that it won't.

Second, community members will use contribution points, earned one way or another, to enable the most popular songs. I suspect this won't be sustained long-term (and that the only reason we already have 3 whole songs on there is because people used points mostly accrued years ago doing proofs. A few more will probably be added, and then what happens? Out of a flood of new songs, a trickle are enabled for score tracking by the community, mixed with the ones from the first category.

Or, tangentially, someone eventually finds and implements a better solution to the scale problems with tracking scores for RBN songs, and takes on the non-trivial task of matching the most popular features of scorehero's leaderboards, and people just don't use scorehero for RBN, because it just isn't as good for RBN for the right definition of "good".

Personally, I think the first option is most likely, so good luck I suppose. Also, pretty much this whole post was written before seeing JCirri's latest post. I'm glad you're listening, in spite of having to filter out some noise. So far the responses seem to be bringing out some unified themes that I'm sure you noticed, and you probably adequately understand the nuances. I'm sure many of us will be paying close attention to any further revisions and decisions.
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jesse0986  





Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 3518
Location: near the 'E' in 'UNITED'

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is awesome. Been waiting for a way to spend my last two contribution points. I put them toward "White Heat."

Couple of questions though. JCirri, you briefly cover "refunding" points that we spend on songs so that we can move them to other songs. What about the possibility of "refunding" points that we've spent on other features? For example, I spent hundreds of points purchasing additional score slots back when I was playing competitively (I'm up to 16 right now), but I don't think I ever reached 16 scores on a single song, and I don't even play competitively anymore so damn near all those additional slots are just going unused. Would it be possible to "buy back" those contribution points that I spent on score slots so I could put them toward unlocking RBN songs for scoretracking? I'd be losing a few scores here and there but frankly I don't care about scores anymore (although, of course, that goes against the point of the site). At 250 points a pop I could unlock two or three songs myself.

Concerning the 41,000 unused contribution points--that is a LOT. This might sound like highway robbery, but what if you took the contribution points from players who, say, haven't logged onto the site in over a year, and just threw them into a big pool? From there you could implement some kind of voting process to give some power to those who can't reasonably spend money or time earning contribution points themselves, and then just proportionate the points to the songs based on number of votes or something. Spending other people's points might sound like a jerk idea but I'm certain that a healthy chunk of those points are never going to be spent by the user who earned them.
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tidwell  





Joined: 12 Jul 2008
Posts: 54
Location: New York City

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCirri wrote:
ajanata wrote:
Would it be possible to make the store list able to be sorted by how many points are remaining to unlock a song?

It's possible, and something I wanted to add. Unfortunately it's not easy as the data is separated across 2 different databases with no way to join at that level.

I know what to do to make it happen though. I'll try to add that later tonight or tomorrow, as it would be very useful.


I wrote a quick JS script that does this, that I'm running in console. Perhaps it would be faster to just add this onto the page than messing with querying the database and all that junk? (I can modify it so you can attach it to a "sort" button or something similar if you like)

http://rockstats.com/reorder.js
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fmadmonk  





Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 200

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carungi wrote:
blingdomepiece wrote:
Here's a suggestion I kind of hate but could still work:

Give people 1 contribution point every time they submit a score for a RA-authored song for which they previously had no scores. Maybe limit this to 1 per instrument if you are worried about people submitting for each difficulty.

Pro: SH wants RA "clients" to have an advantage: more people will buy your songs so they can get points to unlock the songs they actually want (haha)

Pro: instead of contributing $20 here to get 40 points, I can buy 20 songs and submit 80 scores and get 80 points.

Con: somebody has to actually code this including preventing exploits.

I like this idea. It's simple, promotes RA sponsored songs and gives users on the RB side a way to gain points without having to buy a GH related item.

Simple way to solve the con here is to make picture proof required in order to gain points for submitting RA-authored songs. One point per instrument, no matter the difficulty they choose. 4 points a song per user. Reduce the amount of points required for a song to go up in score-tracking (say 150). Keep it community based. The people get score tracking for the songs they want. RA gets sales. Everyone is happy.


You don't have to own a song to put in a score. Just make up some numbers that is of a level of performance that nobody would question (4 or low-5 stars) and nothing to it. This would not stop dishonest members from getting 'free' contribution points for their own songs.

The only way around that is to have some verification against a person's gamertag which, with RB's leaderboards, could take quite some time to verify for each submission.
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ManfredvonKarma  





Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 3783
Location: Toms River, NJ

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fmadmonk wrote:
You don't have to own a song to put in a score. Just make up some numbers that is of a level of performance that nobody would question (4 or low-5 stars) and nothing to it. This would not stop dishonest members from getting 'free' contribution points for their own songs.

The only way around that is to have some verification against a person's gamertag which, with RB's leaderboards, could take quite some time to verify for each submission.
There's another way I can think of to implement the same system. It could be coded so that the one contribution point per score only kicks in after a user has submitted proof of ownership for a song. This would be fairly easy (simple picture of your download history). A system could be established under which moderators, or even a small group of trusted volunteers (i.e. a closed process) review the proof pictures, enabling the point per score reward.

It's a bit convoluted, but that's a system that would prevent at least 90% of the cheaters from getting free points, with no harm done to those who simply wish to submit RBN scores, and don't care about the points.
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blingdomepiece  





Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 4358
Location: Ottawa ON Canada

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fmadmonk wrote:
You don't have to own a song to put in a score. Just make up some numbers that is of a level of performance that nobody would question (4 or low-5 stars) and nothing to it. This would not stop dishonest members from getting 'free' contribution points for their own songs.


Which, if discovered, is grounds for an account ban. I somehow don't see people doing this.
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sextypething  





Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it should be something among the lines of giving every member 5 points weekly/monthly, let them spend these points freely towards whichever song they want. Then if they feel like donating to get some extra points then let them.

And... how about 150/200 points per song? 250 is pretty steep.

Just keep taking donations as donations, please, please, please, don't require donations as a part of this. Once server costs and maintenance costs outweigh the balance, then you can start taking drastic measures, but as far as I know (unless I'm mistaken), I'm sure the servers could handle tracking these scores.
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iammax  





Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 438
Location: Westchester, NY

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I really don't like the idea of having to donate actual money to unlock things (and the number of proofs are limited)
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smileymaster  





Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 300
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sextypething wrote:
Just keep taking donations as donations, please, please, please, don't require donations as a part of this. Once server costs and maintenance costs outweigh the balance, then you can start taking drastic measures, but as far as I know (unless I'm mistaken), I'm sure the servers could handle tracking these scores.

If you're going to give out "contribution points", donations are the one of the most logical reasons to give them for.
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