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Deschain
Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 2137
Location: Austin, TX
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 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| ProffessorJoe wrote: | | The full band optimizer came out and nobody had a chance against a power band like fraggle rock. |
Says the guy in Edge of Insanity!
I'm fine with having no optimized paths, but that brings up the question of "Do we just keep user-generated paths a Secret forever?" We actually used more of Kawigi's paths than niq's during the course of finishing up the RB2 setlist, and it's not because they were all miss paths. I didn't have to beg him for them either, he'd independently released all of BTY---v's paths by the time we'd gotten down to work with Lord Rylen. So, following that (according to the paths FR used) a user created more "optimal" paths than the Rocktimizer, wouldn't it also occur that RB3 will be largely optimized independently of a program? The only difference is the certainty that a path is "optimal" or not. And since I have seen full band paths (apart from Kawigi's) being shared on the wiki, this forum, and elsewhere, wouldn't the community get pretty damn close to the grand total anyway? This is why I PM'd niq shortly after GD:RB came out, asking him to hold off on releasing the paths. No offense to the pathing purists, but someone is going to use these. I'm not even saying it's gonna be me, but if the means are there, someone will nab it.
As for leaderboards, I'm pretty sure FR is sticking to the standard GDVB non-pro setup. There may be runs with pro and/or reg Keys, and maybe even pro drums if Moose gets a set of cymbals he's satisfied with, but until then that's what we'll be sticking with.
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Fraggle Rock
| Lars Ulrich said, not wrote: | | It's only 7 1/2 minutes! F***, we gotta put some more riffs in there. |
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Shaftedofadown
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 1408
Location: Hoover, AL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:24 am Post subject: |
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Passing paths along to other people doesn't seem like a problem.
Can I compare this to the BCS-Associated Press playoff arguments in college football?
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| BigFatBob wrote: | | DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN, SUPERMAN, THOUGH. I ain't never seen a nigga puttin' a song on his back like that before, though! |
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niq24601
Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:41 am Post subject: |
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tl/dr : Current plan is no on-disc paths until RB4 comes out. If keeping Rocktimizer paths secret would help bring back the DLC whores rivalry, I'll hold those back until DLC is picked there; otherwise I'll catch back up on DLC after the next league season.
Okay, some assorted notes.- Most configurations are not available in online play. It's just GBDV, GKDV, and KBDV plus/minus pro and harmonies.
- When you consider that few people will have pro guitars, that not every drummer has pro drums, and that getting 3 great singers in the same room is going to be a pain, classic GBDV (no pro) and maybe GBDV w/ pro drums will probably be the dominant form of gameplay.
- Except for a handful of keys-heavy songs (Cold as Ice?), I'm guessing GBDV will be the optimal configuration. EDIT: pro keys are worth a fuckton of points; there seem to be a fair number of songs where GKDV is possibly optimal with pro keys.
- The Rocktimizer paths don't consider miss paths ATM. I've thought about supporting miss path estimates but I'm not sure I can avoid generating false positives (e.g. suggesting activation while an instrument is building multiplier back up).
- I'm just going to pretend fail paths don't exist. Srsly F that noise.
- I would like to show Rocktimizer paths for either DLC or on-disc after FB league play to generate some pathing discussion among players. I plan on doing FB league play, but either I'm going to be singing or need to practice drums a shitton
 . Even though I've never done FB league play I followed the path discussions in the forums during S10 since I found pathing interesting. But I will defer to what league players want.
- I apologize for not having TB:RB paths yet. Harmonies turn out to be more annoying than I thought >.< . Another update on those soon, I swear...
- Kawigi only released FB paths after I released Rocktimizer on-disc paths :P; not sure what he would have done w/o The Rocktimizer :P.
- As Kawigi demonstrates, human beings can come close enough to or beat The Rocktimizer. I think at the time I released on-disc paths, people had beaten Rocktimizer optimals on over half the songs.
| BowlZ wrote: | | I don't wanna see upperbound either. It punishes people who can find unintuitive paths and discourages people to look for miss paths. |
I'm not following. Band X really wants to take first place on a song, but they can only come up with a subpar path. They can't find the unintuitive thing to beat the clever path found by band Y, but they see the upper bound. So Band X ... keeps banging their head against the wall on the path?
| Shaftedofadown wrote: | | Can I compare this to the BCS-Associated Press playoff arguments in college football? |
The BCS/playoff argument is different. There are legitimate arguments to both side of this debate. The BCS people are just wrong.
Current state of what niq is thinking of doing:- Try to revive the DLC whores rivalry. If that means not releasing RB3 paths for old DLC until songs get picked for the rivalry, so be it (Rivalry discussion here).
- If people want DLC paths, I'm still going to hold them until the next season of leagues is over, to help have a chance of DLC full band league.
- Release RB3 on-disc paths When RB4 or whatever comes next is released. If someone wants to go back and take 1st place on an old game, they can use the walkthrough.
- Release on-disc "upper bounds" after the next season of leagues or next summer, whichever comes later.
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The Rocktimizer: RB2 Full Band Optimal Paths
"gay" and "rape". You keep on using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean. | singemfrc wrote: | | When I got GHWoR at midnight the guy behind me was there to buy a copy of Iron Man 2 on Blu Ray and midnight. Buying a movie at midnight release? Wow, so I didn't feel like the biggest loser |
Last edited by niq24601 on Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Shaftedofadown
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 1408
Location: Hoover, AL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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1) the BCS calculates things no human can see. The BCS is a much better system at the end of the season once all of the regular season games have been played out
2) your counter-argument to Bowlz's point is almost correct... Except the clear point he's trying to make is for a path of a song like Alive. No one would have found the 2.1 path if not for the rocktimizer, and the miss path was clearly superior than anything other than that one.
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| BigFatBob wrote: | | DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN, SUPERMAN, THOUGH. I ain't never seen a nigga puttin' a song on his back like that before, though! |
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Kawigi
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2879
Location: Redmond, WA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Shaftedofadown wrote: | 1) the BCS calculates things no human can see. The BCS is a much better system at the end of the season once all of the regular season games have been played out
2) your counter-argument to Bowlz's point is almost correct... Except the clear point he's trying to make is for a path of a song like Alive. No one would have found the 2.1 path if not for the rocktimizer, and the miss path was clearly superior than anything other than that one. |
(And if you tweak things earlier to be more like his path and still do the miss path of my path, I'm pretty sure the miss path is still better. But I adjusted earlier activations to be easier to not accidentally run over OD phrases, even though it would be worth fewer points)
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r0bd0g
Joined: 21 Feb 2010
Posts: 327
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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"classic GBDV (no pro) and maybe GBDV w/ pro drums will probably be the dominant form of gameplay"
We typically use harmonies, even though we only have a single vocalist. The harmony windows and harmony squeezings are just too good to pass up.
"The Rocktimizer paths don't consider miss paths ATM."
If a miss path is suspected on a particular song, can you generate a miss-path path? And You Bird Can Sing has an overhit on the first BM and I Me Mine has one in the second verse. Could something similar be done where a significantly better path may result when using some squeezing? If you can get an activation from the first guitar phrases on WYWY/TNK and GS/CTW/TE, a different path may result.
Lol, I think from here on out I'm just gonna stop bothering you with my incoherent ramblings, but, the GDRB paths, those are for imports, right? I noticed vocal activations on windows <0.8s. So on-disk is coming once you figure out TBRB?
tl;dr: Meh, you didn't really miss anything important. |
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niq24601
Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 323
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r0bd0g
Joined: 21 Feb 2010
Posts: 327
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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"where you intentionally avoid double or triple awesomes"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LDPKlI_ELs
(two guitar activations have moved slightly since we did this run)
Of interest is the final phrase of the song. We hit the first line (orange) at about 7x, the singer gets triple fab, and the phrase only gives us 9k. The theory is that the singer lost ticks on the orange line but not on the brown, and then the brown counted for the 4k. 
Basically what I'm saying is that you don't need to avoid double or triple fabs to harmony squeeze -- just drop a tick. I think you can assume said tick to be negligible. Lol, we basically got conned out of an x-plat score (the current leaders used prerecorded harmonies  ).
"And no worries about ramblings"
Lol, so NOW I'm done... >_> |
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BowlZ 
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 1472
Location: Aurora, Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| niq24601 wrote: | | BowlZ wrote: | | I don't wanna see upperbound either. It punishes people who can find unintuitive paths and discourages people to look for miss paths. |
I'm not following. Band X really wants to take first place on a song, but they can only come up with a subpar path. They can't find the unintuitive thing to beat the clever path found by band Y, but they see the upper bound. So Band X ... keeps banging their head against the wall on the path? |
the difference is knowing that score is out there before someone has a chance to get it. It still discourages someone from trying something new.
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Deschain
Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 2137
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:14 am Post subject: |
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So just because someone is discouraged, they won't try again, or at all? I've got a path on Dani California that will guarantee at least a 40k spread better than what the Rocktimizer says, and I made it after Rocktimizer came out.
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Fraggle Rock
| Lars Ulrich said, not wrote: | | It's only 7 1/2 minutes! F***, we gotta put some more riffs in there. |
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Shaftedofadown
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 1408
Location: Hoover, AL
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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We're not all as motivated as you are, Deschain 
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| BigFatBob wrote: | | DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN, SUPERMAN, THOUGH. I ain't never seen a nigga puttin' a song on his back like that before, though! |
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Shaftedofadown
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 1408
Location: Hoover, AL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: |
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pointing out some errors i found:
fear of the dark:
-first vocal activation is 2/sk3
-last two drums activations are skip 2
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| BigFatBob wrote: | | DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN, SUPERMAN, THOUGH. I ain't never seen a nigga puttin' a song on his back like that before, though! |
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Iggy-Sparks
Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 523
Location: Södertälje, Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:08 am Post subject: |
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So how is it doing?
What is planned for 2011? 
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Shaftedofadown
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 1408
Location: Hoover, AL
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:46 am Post subject: |
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what's going on with the search bar?
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| BigFatBob wrote: | | DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN, SUPERMAN, THOUGH. I ain't never seen a nigga puttin' a song on his back like that before, though! |
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niq24601
Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 323
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Shaftedofadown wrote: | | what's going on with the search bar? |
Sorry for being so AWOL. Like Doomorin, Starcraft 2 has eaten my gaming life alive, both playing and working with the guys who are doing the SC2 equivalent of the rocktimizer (it's probably eating my non gaming life too >_>.).
I need to find time to tend to The Rocktimizer. I believe the search bar is broken because google decided to change their jquery hosting. I'll at least fix that this weekend. As for RB3 rocktimization, I hear the multiplier is totally fakakta -- if vocals are in OD, the multipler stacks 2x,3x,4x,5x instead of 2x,4x,6x,8x? Any idea if HMX plans to patch it?
Also what's the state of pro difficulty? Are people even going for FCs of the hard guitar/bass songs or is the consensus that anything Nightmare or harder is just beyond human ability?
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The Rocktimizer: RB2 Full Band Optimal Paths
"gay" and "rape". You keep on using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean. | singemfrc wrote: | | When I got GHWoR at midnight the guy behind me was there to buy a copy of Iron Man 2 on Blu Ray and midnight. Buying a movie at midnight release? Wow, so I didn't feel like the biggest loser |
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