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The ROCKTIMIZER: Full-band optimal paths
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r0bd0g  





Joined: 21 Feb 2010
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Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, I wasn't actually serious about that. I couldn't really fathom how to write a program to do all this, and I'm pretty sure I got that dynamic programming question right on my algorithms exam, lol.
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niq24601  





Joined: 07 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, thinking about this some more, the increased number of vox activation points is easy to deal with, it just adds compute time (BTW, this is going to wreck the RB2 paths in a huge number of songs for solo vox and full band ._.)

Dealing with "harmony squeezing", aka when you skip the lead vocals and instead use one of the harmony parts to keep combo because the harmony works better with OD (e.g. if Afterlife had harmonies, skipping "this peace on Earth's not right" and instead singing "with my back against the wall"), is complicated, but it won't increase compute time that much since you only have to decide which line to sing as the primary point-scoring line once per phrase.
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The Rocktimizer: RB2 Full Band Optimal Paths

"gay" and "rape". You keep on using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
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Shaftedofadown  





Joined: 30 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think there's something off about the Uncontrollable Urge score. It's about 20k off.
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r0bd0g  





Joined: 21 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, what about maybe pathing the Chapter Challenges? All you'd need to do really, is feed it the charts, back to back, with 32 beats in the middle?

The guitar chart for if I needed Someone is different on Wii. Is there any way you could account for that?
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niq24601  





Joined: 07 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bump for OP update. Please feel free to add feedback here.

Personally I am rooting for less splintering of "full"-band play. If I ruled the world, people would track scores in the following categories:
  1. Classic GBDV (no pro)
  2. Pro drums only GBDV
  3. Pro drums w/ harmonies GBDVvv
  4. Pro guitar/bass/drums GBDV
  5. Pro guitar/bass/drums with harmonies GBDVvv
  6. All Instruments GBDK
  7. Top overall score (whatever combination works)
ATM my thinking is that I'll provide paths for #1-5 but not #6 (and therefore not provably #7 though pro GBDVvv will usually be the best score). However I could be convinced to provide fewer paths, possibly just #1, #2, and #5.

Discuss.
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The Rocktimizer: RB2 Full Band Optimal Paths

"gay" and "rape". You keep on using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
singemfrc wrote:
When I got GHWoR at midnight the guy behind me was there to buy a copy of Iron Man 2 on Blu Ray and midnight. Buying a movie at midnight release? Wow, so I didn't feel like the biggest loser
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ProffessorJoe  





Joined: 02 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still going to vote for no RB3 on disc paths. Maybe do all the old DLC because of the new vocals engine, but i'll be a tad disappointed if there are optimized paths for RB3 too
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bclare  





Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProffessorJoe wrote:
I'm still going to vote for no RB3 on disc paths. Maybe do all the old DLC because of the new vocals engine, but i'll be a tad disappointed if there are optimized paths for RB3 too


Have you noticed that niq said he's not going to release RB3 disc paths until the spring or until one SH league season has passed? Anyway even the rocktimizer paths aren't perfect, for a variety of reasons, and the top-scoring bands have shown that computer-generated band paths are good as a starting point to find optimal, not the end.
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ProffessorJoe  





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bclare wrote:
ProffessorJoe wrote:
I'm still going to vote for no RB3 on disc paths. Maybe do all the old DLC because of the new vocals engine, but i'll be a tad disappointed if there are optimized paths for RB3 too


Have you noticed that niq said he's not going to release RB3 disc paths until the spring or until one SH league season has passed? Anyway even the rocktimizer paths aren't perfect, for a variety of reasons, and the top-scoring bands have shown that computer-generated band paths are good as a starting point to find optimal, not the end.


I do know niqs plan, but optimized paths ARE the best paths. They just need minor tweaking. Optimized paths are what killed the competition in RB2. The guitar/bass optimizer came out and all the competitive squeezers stopped..... The full band optimizer came out and nobody had a chance against a power band like fraggle rock. I may be in the minority but i personally don't want RB3 optimized paths to EVER come out. However, it might/might not be interesting if you release the opimized estimated scores, but not the paths.... that way you can see if a band glitched, or if nobody has come close to the path. Just a random thought anyway lol.
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niq24601  





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProffessorJoe wrote:
However, it might/might not be interesting if you release the opimized estimated scores but not the paths.... that way you can see if a band glitched,, or if nobody has come close to the path. Just a random thought anyway lol.

Hmmmmm ...

I hadn't thought of that. That might not be a bad idea... or rather what I would do is release the paths after RB4 has come out and everyone has moved on to the new hotness. That would also give me plenty of time to see what permutations high-caliber players tend to play and only bother with paths for things that people play actively -- e.g. if the pro guitar & bass are just too damn hard to keep combo I can not bother with those.
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The Rocktimizer: RB2 Full Band Optimal Paths

"gay" and "rape". You keep on using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
singemfrc wrote:
When I got GHWoR at midnight the guy behind me was there to buy a copy of Iron Man 2 on Blu Ray and midnight. Buying a movie at midnight release? Wow, so I didn't feel like the biggest loser
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bclare  





Joined: 21 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

niq24601 wrote:
ProffessorJoe wrote:
However, it might/might not be interesting if you release the opimized estimated scores but not the paths.... that way you can see if a band glitched,, or if nobody has come close to the path. Just a random thought anyway lol.

Hmmmmm ...

I hadn't thought of that. That might not be a bad idea... or rather what I would do is release the paths after RB4 has come out and everyone has moved on to the new hotness. That would also give me plenty of time to see what permutations high-caliber players tend to play and only bother with paths for things that people play actively -- e.g. if the pro guitar & bass are just too damn hard to keep combo I can not bother with those.


We don't even know quite yet how scoring for Pro guitar/bass works, so yeah don't worry about that now. How about just running paths for the standard configuration and releasing the upperbound scores for now, then watch for what other configurations people actually play with and maybe release the paths later?


As a counterpoint to what Prof Joe was saying though, I think the full band paths are great for everyone who isn't a competitive squeezer or super-band. There are lots of people who just play in bqp with friends semi-competitively, and having a good full band path to follow (or at least sort of follow) is a really nice option.
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Shaftedofadown  





Joined: 30 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Joe on the FULL BAND aspect, but the solo aspect should have paths no matter what. The current way is great... but when you release full band paths for RB3 on-disc songs, it definitely takes away from the fun. However, DLC is the complete opposite. I still think paths for the DLC are fine because not everyone plays the DLC songs.
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r0bd0g  





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to skip the debate on path vs. no paths, and just say what I'd like to have at my disposal, when it comes time to play with a band.

- The path that I'd like to know the most is probably, whichever is better of non-pro GBDV, GBDVvv, GKDV, GKDVvv, BKDV, and BKDVvv. If that's impractical, the top solo scores could help with making an educated guess.

- For pro mode, it's probably going to come down to whether or not any of the pro modes see a lot of use, but, the rocktimizer, to me, should be about maximizing your band score, and to do that, you need the overall top score, which means the path for the best score of every combination ever. Sounds impractical to me, so maybe the all-pro version of the best non-pro combination could approximate that.

- For the purpose of comparing a band's non-pro scores on SH, standard GBDV would probably be used, so in the event that the best non-pro path is not GBDV, GBDV as well.

EDIT: But whatever. I'm super-excited for TBRB, and IDK how often you get this, but thank you for your hard work.
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Iggy-Sparks  





Joined: 04 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When do you plan to release TB:RB full band paths?

I've thought it would be released when RB3 came out, but the links are still not working

Thanks for you work!
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MasterNobody  





Joined: 11 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bclare wrote:
How about just running paths for the standard configuration and releasing the upperbound scores for now, then watch for what other configurations people actually play with and maybe release the paths later?


This, this, this, this, this. Knowing estimated optimal scores right now would be AMAZING, as we could weed out glitched scores right from the start, and people trying to path things would know what to shoot for.
Than in like March/April-ish, we can re-evaluate based on what the community is doing with RB3 and where we want to go from there, we really don't need to worry about it just yet.
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BowlZ  





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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProffessorJoe wrote:
I'm still going to vote for no RB3 on disc paths. Maybe do all the old DLC because of the new vocals engine, but i'll be VERY disappointed if there are optimized paths for RB3 too


I don't wanna see any ondisc band paths ever, and I'm not a big fan of DLC paths either. How would people feel if someone came out with an optimized playing program and all people needed to do was find a path instead of playing. Thats the same argument as giving paths away to me. For some reason solo paths don't irk me much - but generated band paths infuriate me.

I don't wanna see upperbound either. It punishes people who can find unintuitive paths and discourages people to look for miss paths. Leave band play alone...
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