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Drums and squeezing?
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GurnKiller  
 




Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 2319
Location: Central NJ

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:14 pm    Post subject: Drums and squeezing? Reply with quote

So I've been thinking a bit about squeezing on drums, and I think I MAY be on to something.

Take the top 3 In Bloom scores:
GurnKiller - 202,875 - FC - 1585 NS
defiler47 - 202,775 - FC - 1584 NS
sevin - 202, 675 - FC - 1584 NS

Now assuming we used the same OD path (which I'm pretty sure we did), this raises 2 questions:
1. Why are we all 100 points away from eachother
and
2. Why do I have an extra note in my NS?

I have no clue about the second, but I may have an idea for the first.

Whenever I come out of an OD phrase, I never JUST hit the green pad. As a drummer irl, my natural tendency is to hit the bass drum along with the cymbal, so I always hit the bass drum with that green pad.

Is it possible that it's registering that as an extra note?

I'm not 100% sure, because if you look at the Main Offender scores, the top 4 of us have FCs with the exact same score and NS. However, why does sevin have 1 less note in his FC?

Also look at Blitzkrieg Bop. The top 3 scores are FCs, but each are 200 points away from eachother. Again, this is assuming we all used the same OD paths.

Also in Gimme Shelter. Why do I have an extra note in my FC versus someguy913 and defiler47?

Anyone have any thoughts? To be honest, I feel a little bit guilty that I'm "squeezing" into first place on some of these when they really should be tied scores with other FCs with the same OD paths.

I won't be able to add to the discussion until tomorrow afternoon as I'm leaving for the night here shortly, but I'd be interested to see what other people think.
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Echelar  
 




Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 1246
Location: Fort Wayne, IN

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I just figured this out today as well. The bass drum IS registering as an extra note, and you get 8x for it.

http://rockband.scorehero.com/rankings.php?platform=2&size=1&group=3&diff=4&song=3&page=1

That's what happens when you bass drum on all 3 activations on ITIP. I tried hitting other pads too, but it would either ignore them, or break streak. I'll talk to JC when he's around next, but we'll probably have to live with this unless it's patched away. Without any optimal OD paths & scores to check against the top scores, we will have a hard time proving that someone did or didn't use this if we wanted to label it a "cheat".
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disquette  
 




Joined: 12 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Echelar wrote:
Actually, I just figured this out today as well. The bass drum IS registering as an extra note, and you get 8x for it.\


Thanks for the info. I can't FC any of them on expert, but I did FC Gimme Shelter on Hard, and was disappointed to see that it wasn't enough points to tie for first. I was wondering how that could happen.
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TheGlow  
 




Joined: 18 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hah. Im not a pro drummer but I remember reading others tending to like to bass+green the fills and I tried to do other hits and Id usually break combo, so ive only done this a few times.
Looks like i should do a few more times just to make my 5* on hard that much closer.
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defiler47  
 




Joined: 16 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That explains a lot, very interesting
nice find.
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rabies  
 




Joined: 04 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ech - did you try hitting bass+green plus yet another drum..say red..to see if you get even more?
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Spartan360X  
 




Joined: 14 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I just tried this one in Gimmer Shelter on Hard...and what do ya know got 1 more NS then seconed place and 100 more points, So im thinking this is true...(should of done it at each activation instead of just the first one.)
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panteraddict  
 




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Echelar wrote:
Actually, I just figured this out today as well. The bass drum IS registering as an extra note, and you get 8x for it.

http://rockband.scorehero.com/rankings.php?platform=2&size=1&group=3&diff=4&song=3&page=1

That's what happens when you bass drum on all 3 activations on ITIP. I tried hitting other pads too, but it would either ignore them, or break streak. I'll talk to JC when he's around next, but we'll probably have to live with this unless it's patched away. Without any optimal OD paths & scores to check against the top scores, we will have a hard time proving that someone did or didn't use this if we wanted to label it a "cheat".


I wouldn't label this a "cheat". Its too hard to tell whether someone used it or not, unless the song was FC'd. I say just inform everyone it exists and let everyone use it. I highly doubt we will get a patch for this. Even if we did get a patch, that is when it would become a "cheat"...because then you would only have been able to score the extra 200 pts if you played a song before a certain date, which may lock a few top scores essentially.
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panteraddict  
 




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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this fully explain the 142875 in I think I'm paranoid, where the normal FC score is 142275? I still unclear whether you can "squeeze" every activation, or just once and the others don't effect anything.

I gave it a shot on wanted dead or alive on hard, and only managed an extra 100 pts, even though I felt like I should have had the extra 400-500.
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Fedora  
 




Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess maybe it doesn't *always* register?
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TheGlow  
 




Joined: 18 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems some cases its 100pts and others 200.
Maybe its based on the temp of the song or the timing. If the bass was hit just a hair before Green or with it exactly, its 4x, but a hair after would be the 8x.
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GurnKiller  
 




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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odd. I just went through and tried to "squeeze" on I Think I'm Paranoid, but I didn't see any difference in my score from when I FCed it a while ago.
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violinhero86  
 




Joined: 18 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I might have figured out why this happens.

Many of the drum fill sections coincide with actual passages in the song that end with cymbal crashes and accompanying kick. If you hit the cymbal crash early at the end of a drum fill, then you have a small window to play that last note from the normal chart.

This explains why playing the kick pedal late gets you extra points while playing it early doesn't. It also explains why hitting other pads either doesn't do anything or breaks combo; there are no other pads on that note hiding under the cymbal crash. Finally, it explains why it doesn't work in all songs; as pointed out in another thread, not all cymbal crashes have an accompanying kick. Some of the drum fills might end at this kind of note.

To get further evidence for this hypothesis (what can I say, I'm a scientist), I double-drummed the green pad at the end of the fill (once to activate OD, another for the "hidden" green note) in addition to hitting the kick pedal late, and lo! I got 600 more points than the current top score, and three more notes in my streak [Edit: on I Think I'm Paranoid]. That means that the cymbal crash at the end of the drum fill is not the same note as the cymbal crash hiding underneath in the normal chart!
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alexonfire  
 




Joined: 15 Jan 2007
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Location: milwaukee, wisconsin

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

violinhero86 wrote:
I think I might have figured out why this happens.

Many of the drum fill sections coincide with actual passages in the song that end with cymbal crashes and accompanying kick. If you hit the cymbal crash early at the end of a drum fill, then you have a small window to play that last note from the normal chart.

This explains why playing the kick pedal late gets you extra points while playing it early doesn't. It also explains why hitting other pads either doesn't do anything or breaks combo; there are no other pads on that note hiding under the cymbal crash. Finally, it explains why it doesn't work in all songs; as pointed out in another thread, not all cymbal crashes have an accompanying kick. Some of the drum fills might end at this kind of note.

To get further evidence for this hypothesis (what can I say, I'm a scientist), I double-drummed the green pad at the end of the fill (once to activate OD, another for the "hidden" green note) in addition to hitting the kick pedal late, and lo! I got 600 more points than the current top score, and three more notes in my streak [Edit: on I Think I'm Paranoid]. That means that the cymbal crash at the end of the drum fill is not the same note as the cymbal crash hiding underneath in the normal chart!


impressive work. i wonder if HMX did this on purpose, or if it's a software glitch, if it's the latter, and they patch it, what are we going to do about the scoreboards?

and did you have 4x overdrive activations throughout the song? because 3rd place has an FC with 4 notes less than you.
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violinhero86  
 




Joined: 18 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexonfire wrote:
and did you have 4x overdrive activations throughout the song? because 3rd place has an FC with 4 notes less than you.


Yeah, I FC'ed it. He probably has a streak of four fewer notes because he successfully got the kick on two of the three OD activations, and none of the extra cymbal crashes.

The "base" FC score for I Think I'm Paranoid (assuming you activate every time a fill comes up and don't hoard energy instead) would be 145,275 with a streak of 1227. Each extra kick or cymbal crash gets you an additional 200 points and one more note for your streak. You can do this once at each fill, and there's the possibility for three fills in this song, so the max score (assuming this OD path is optimal and that there isn't anything left to be discovered about OD usage) would then be an additional 1200 points with a streak 6 notes longer, i.e., a score of 146,475 and a streak of 1233. Does that make sense?
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