FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
One-Man Band Rules Change
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ScoreHero Forum Index -> Leagues
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Deimos  
 




Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 1344
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: One-Man Band Rules Change Reply with quote

Figured I should make a post about this, as it may influence some peoples' decision whether to participate in One-Man Band leagues this season.

We've decided to modify the scoring system somewhat for One-Man Band. Previously, participants would submit scores for each of Guitar, Bass, Drums, and Vocals, each instrument was ranked individually, and every instrument contributed equally to the person's overall points total. Many people have brought up the concern that this weights the league towards good guitar players, because "guitar instruments" make up half of the scoring potential every week, while drums and vocals only make up 1/4 each.

After some consideration and discussion, we've made the following change to One-Man Band scoring:

Players will still submit individual scores for all four instruments, and every instrument will be ranked individually, as before. However, the point totals for Guitar and Bass will be averaged, then the average added to points from Vocals and Drums.

This makes it so that scoring potential is now divided into 3 parts, instead of 4: Guitar+Bass / Drums / Vocals. As an example, imagine at the end of a particular round, I have the following points from my individual instruments:

Guitar: 95
Bass: 81
Drums: 72
Vocals: 66

Under the old system, my point total would have been:
95 + 81 + 72 + 66 = 314 (out of a possible 400)

Under the new system, my point total will now be:
((95 + 81) / 2) + 72 + 66 = 226 (out of a possible 300)

We think this will make One-Man Band more competitive for people that "specialize" in drums or vocals. Please leave any comments or opinions about this change.
_________________
Sturgeon was an optimist.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: Deimorz
ProffessorJoe  
 




Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

awesome idea. If you are amazing at guitar you are at bass as well. This definately adds some competition to the league. Great change guys!
_________________
ORRUSmaller.jpgMy Accomplishments / YouTube / Twitch
Over-Rated 'R Us Accomplishments
Over-Rated 'R Us Videos
Go there for videos of Over Rated R Us featuring the amazing RJUCPU!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger XBL Gamertag: PR0FFESS0RJ0E
woozerkristen  
 




Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 1917
Location: Auburn/Tuskegee, AL

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very, very much!!! Great idea.
_________________
My BlogProfile for woozerkristen


Vocalist/Guitarist/Bassist for The PermaRockers | Vocalist/Bassist/Pather for Now-Retired Band Interrobang! | Interrobang! Full Band Vids/Solo Vox Vids on YouTube | Facebook | Twitter | Solo Accomplishments Thread
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Visit poster's website PSN Name: woozerkristen
BowlZ  
 




Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 1469
Location: Aurora, Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Kisses*
_________________
Must Read for Scoreheroers and everyone 10-20yrs old on internet in general
Drummer for Better Than You--v || our accomplishments
My Accomplishments-My Stream

'First Ever' is needlessly redundant and its never acceptable to use more than 3 exclamation points...
Daniel Tosh wrote:
Metal Sucks. Its the same 3 chords and a guy yelling like cookie monster. If I wanted to see a bunch of sweaty dudes scream for an hour I'd watch gay porn.
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website XBL Gamertag: BowlZ
TheTinkerbread  
 




Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 406
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
You guys rock
_________________

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website XBL Gamertag: TheTinkerbread
beingmused  
 




Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 2475
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I do think the old system was tilted a bit towards guitar specialists, but this move is a bit like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If one were to assume that bass and guitar charts are equally difficult, then this move makes sense. But in at least 80% of the cases, that is not true; the bass parts are significantly easier. That means that a good guitar performance is effectively diluted; someone who does very well on a tough guitar song has those points only weighted half of what they would otherwise be.

If the goal was to make it so that guitar skill, drums skill, and vocals skill are all treated equally, the much better solution for future leagues would be to simply drop bass. This flies in the face of the "one man band" theme, but it is the fairest (and doesn't make people spend twice as long pathing/trying guitar and bass as they do drums and vocals).

Since most non-guitar specialists are going to typically have an ok time with the bass part anyways, the prior system is even fairer than the new one.
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Visit poster's website PSN Name: beingmused
midgetspy  
 




Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome, this is WAY fairer. Removing bass completely is still the fairest way to do it but this is I think as close as it can be to fair while still including bass.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nintendoboy90091  
 




Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beingmused wrote:
Hmm, I do think the old system was tilted a bit towards guitar specialists, but this move is a bit like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If one were to assume that bass and guitar charts are equally difficult, then this move makes sense. But in at least 80% of the cases, that is not true; the bass parts are significantly easier. That means that a good guitar performance is effectively diluted; someone who does very well on a tough guitar song has those points only weighted half of what they would otherwise be.

If the goal was to make it so that guitar skill, drums skill, and vocals skill are all treated equally, the much better solution for future leagues would be to simply drop bass. This flies in the face of the "one man band" theme, but it is the fairest (and doesn't make people spend twice as long pathing/trying guitar and bass as they do drums and vocals).

Since most non-guitar specialists are going to typically have an ok time with the bass part anyways, the prior system is even fairer than the new one.


But still to the Guitar and Bass charts being the same, if you are talking about Rockband 1, then yes Bass is easier, but in Rockband 2, they are wicked harder, trust em i know from my own skills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger XBL Gamertag: UR PLAYER 2
woozerkristen  
 




Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 1917
Location: Auburn/Tuskegee, AL

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beingmused wrote:

Since most non-guitar specialists are going to typically have an ok time with the bass part anyways, the prior system is even fairer than the new one.


True, it's easier to FC bass even for the people who specialize in other instruments, but from what I remember of last time, it's still the guitar specialists beating out everyone else on bass because they're more adept at the actual playing and can concentrate on pathing and squeezing; for people like me -- ok at expert guitar & bass but not great -- just hitting all the notes is a pretty big deal, and concentrating on remembering a path, etc, doesn't come easily at all. Most everyone will FC the bass part every time, but it's still the top guitarists who hit the paths and squeezes and place at the top, while the rest of us, happy to finally get the FC or GS, still sit at the bottom of the rankings.

I for sure see where you're coming from, and I know I'm probably biased as someone who doesn't do all that well at guitar, but I think this is more fair than giving the outstanding guitarists a bonus set of points that comes with beating the pants off everyone at bass in addition to guitar.
_________________
My BlogProfile for woozerkristen


Vocalist/Guitarist/Bassist for The PermaRockers | Vocalist/Bassist/Pather for Now-Retired Band Interrobang! | Interrobang! Full Band Vids/Solo Vox Vids on YouTube | Facebook | Twitter | Solo Accomplishments Thread
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Visit poster's website PSN Name: woozerkristen
Deimos  
 




Joined: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 1344
Location: Calgary, AB

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beingmused wrote:
If the goal was to make it so that guitar skill, drums skill, and vocals skill are all treated equally, the much better solution for future leagues would be to simply drop bass. This flies in the face of the "one man band" theme, but it is the fairest (and doesn't make people spend twice as long pathing/trying guitar and bass as they do drums and vocals).

I was wondering how long it would take someone to point this out, it's definitely true. You have to do "twice as much work" now on guitar/bass for the same point-potential as drums or vocals. It's a hard call to make, really.

Dropping bass would balance the skills more, but I feel like it defeats a lot of the purpose of the league. The point is that you're playing as the whole band, and getting rid of 1/4 of the band just seems wrong. I wouldn't even want to call the league "One-Man Band" any more.

I'm really not sure, I think that all 4 instruments should be kept if we want to keep the spirit of the league, but I'm not sure if there's any better way to make the scores balanced. Any ideas?
_________________
Sturgeon was an optimist.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: Deimorz
beingmused  
 




Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 2475
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deimos wrote:
Any ideas?


Uh, here's a weird one that just occurred to me:

From a numbers standpoint, it would absolve my concern about bass diluting the guitar value if it were combined with every instrument - that is, your scores would be
guitar + 2/4ths bass, drums + 1/4th bass, vocals + 1/4 bass

AKA instead of it being its own category, and instead of it making a tough guitar solo only half as meaningful, your bass score would support each of your other scores. Some might say that this would be no different than giving it its own category, but as per my understanding of the scoring system, it would lessen the impact bass would have while not quite halving the impact guitar has. Being a at least a decent bassist would be necessary to doing well, but it wouldn't make it so that guitar skills constitute one half of the end scoring.

But I dismissed that because it doesn't make any real world sense....until I thought that bass is a primarily "supportive" instrument designed to lay a foundation for other instruments (so is drums, but we can ignore that since its scoring is fine). Like, if bass is off, that means you can't hear the vocals/drums/guitar as well....non?

Maybe that isn't the best idea (I'm still not sure what I think about it), but perhaps it will get people thinking.

Edit: To use Deimos's scoring example to illustrate what I mean:

Guitar: 95
Bass: 81
Drums: 72
Vocals: 66

Old system:
95 + 81 + 72 + 66 = 314 (out of a possible 400)

New System:
((95 + 81) / 2) + 72 + 66 = 226 (out of a possible 300)

My proposal:
81/4 = 20.25

The max "guitar" score would now be 150, so you'd multiply it by 2/3rds to get it back down to 100. Max Drums and Vocals scores would be 125, so you'd multiply them by 4/5ths.
((95+40.5)*.66) = 90
((72+20.25)*.8) = 73.8
((66+20.25)*.8) = 69
or 232.8 out of 300, which is a 77.6%, as opposed to the old 78.5%, and the new 75 and 1/3rd%.


Last edited by beingmused on Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:24 pm; edited 4 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Visit poster's website PSN Name: beingmused
woozerkristen  
 




Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 1917
Location: Auburn/Tuskegee, AL

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deimos, would it be possible to retrieve an example week from last season's OMB league (PS2 or next gen), so there are some example numbers for people to play around with and see what works? I think that might provide a demonstration of how the guitar and bass counting separately skew the scores and a set of real players' scores to show how changing the scoring rules would affect the outcome.
_________________
My BlogProfile for woozerkristen


Vocalist/Guitarist/Bassist for The PermaRockers | Vocalist/Bassist/Pather for Now-Retired Band Interrobang! | Interrobang! Full Band Vids/Solo Vox Vids on YouTube | Facebook | Twitter | Solo Accomplishments Thread
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Visit poster's website PSN Name: woozerkristen
beingmused  
 




Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 2475
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I'm not even sure of my own math (I'm a philosopher, we're not responsible for numbers), I wanted to run another example using the same number of points as the prior one, but shifting points from guitar/bass to vocals/drums.

Guitar: 65
Bass: 71
Drums: 82
Vocals: 96
Total: 314
Under the old system they would do the same as the person who scored those points in bass and guitar, since bass was weighted equally. 314/400 is .785

New System:
((65+71) / 2) + 82 + 96 = 246 (out of a possible 300), or .82


My proposal:
71/4 = 17.75

((65+35.5)*.6666) = 67
((82+17.75)*.8) = 79.8
((96+17.75)*.8) = 91
Total would be 237.8/300, which is .792666

To compare
Guitar specialist ties with the vox/drum specialist under the old system on this song. On the new one, the vox/drum beats them .82 to .75, a huge swing. Under my proposal where bass mainly impacts guitar but impacts drum and vocals scoring somewhat, the vox/drum specialist wins .7926 to .776. In other words, even if the net sum of the 4 instrument placements were to be the same, vocals and drums receive a fairer shake than they used to.
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Visit poster's website PSN Name: beingmused
midgetspy  
 




Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beingmused I think the flaw in your logic is this:

Yes, bass charts are easier but that doesn't mean that suckier guitarists will do better in bass. They'll do better on the song but they will still lose against the good guitarists. Remember the numbers Deimos posted aren't percentages or scores, they're percentiles - your score compared to everybody else. Unless the bass song is so easy that everybody can get optimal, the great guitarists will still be getting higher scores on bass.

Take a look at these sample scores (G, B, D, V). Assume that a specialist wins at his instrument and does poorly (50) at the rest.

Guitarist: 100, 100, 50, 50
Drummer: 50, 50, 100, 50
Vocalist: 50, 50, 50, 100

Under your scoring system, the Drummer and Vocalists would have to get 91 points on bass in addition to their 100 on their specialty... which is definitely not fair. In your system, if you suck at guitar you are going to get a worse score than somebody who sucks at any other instrument, period. This is unfair and the point of the change. The only way to avoid this is to remove bass completely.

One possible tweak is to use Deimos' system but weight guitar more heavily:

score = G*0.75 + B*0.25 + D + V

This gives each of the 3 specialists mentioned above an equal score, but allows fewer "easy" points by making bass less important.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
midgetspy  
 




Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

beingmused wrote:

To compare
Guitar specialist ties with the vox/drum specialist under the old system on this song. On the new one, the vox/drum beats them .82 to .75, a huge swing. Under my proposal where bass mainly impacts guitar but impacts drum and vocals scoring somewhat, the vox/drum specialist wins .7926 to .776. In other words, even if the net sum of the 4 instrument placements were to be the same, vocals and drums receive a fairer shake than they used to.


Somebody who's a specialist at 2 instruments (drums & vox) should absolutely beat somebody who's only a specialist at one. Just because they play 2 songs with the guitar shouldn't make it any more important. Somebody who is only a drum specialist or only a vox specialist should definitely get the same score as somebody who's only a guitar specialist.

(G, B, D, V)

Guitar specialist: 100, 100, 50, 50
Old: 0.75
New: 0.666666667
beingmused: 0.733333333

Drums specialist: 50, 50, 100, 50
Old: 0.625
New: 0.666666667
beingmused: 0.633333333

Vox specialist: 50, 50, 50, 100
Old: 0.625
New: 0.666666667
beingmused: 0.633333333
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ScoreHero Forum Index -> Leagues All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



Copyright © 2006-2018 ScoreHero, LLC
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy


Powered by phpBB