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One-Man Band Rules Change
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beingmused  
 




Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 2475
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

midgetspy wrote:
beingmused I think the flaw in your logic is this:

Yes, bass charts are easier but that doesn't mean that suckier guitarists will do better in bass. They'll do better on the song but they will still lose against the good guitarists. Remember the numbers Deimos posted aren't percentages or scores, they're percentiles - your score compared to everybody else. Unless the bass song is so easy that everybody can get optimal, the great guitarists will still be getting higher scores on bass.


I know they're percentiles, but most of the times it will be the case that the people competing for the top scores can and shall FC the bass parts, and placement will come down to pathing and squeezing, which is more a function of time than inherent guitar playing skill.

It is undeniable that the current system undervalues guitar playing abilities, because 1. you have to do twice the work to get 1/3rd of the possible scores and 2. people who put up huge guitar percentiles will end up having their percentile dragged down by the averaging with the bass, since it is much more likely else someone can squeeze their way to 1st even if they couldn't do as well on the guitar part.

My proposal is - I think - a good medium ground.
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beingmused  
 




Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 2475
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

midgetspy wrote:

Guitar specialist: 100, 100, 50, 50
Old: 0.75
New: 0.666666667
beingmused: 0.733333333

Drums specialist: 50, 50, 100, 50
Old: 0.625
New: 0.666666667
beingmused: 0.633333333

Vox specialist: 50, 50, 50, 100
Old: 0.625
New: 0.666666667
beingmused: 0.633333333


Except that it is entirely unrealistic to say that someone's bass percentile will normally duplicate their guitar percentile. On songs where bass is simpler, then that percentile is wide open, from the pure talent perspective.
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ProffessorJoe  
 




Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beingmused wrote:
midgetspy wrote:

Guitar specialist: 100, 100, 50, 50
Old: 0.75
New: 0.666666667
beingmused: 0.733333333

Drums specialist: 50, 50, 100, 50
Old: 0.625
New: 0.666666667
beingmused: 0.633333333

Vox specialist: 50, 50, 50, 100
Old: 0.625
New: 0.666666667
beingmused: 0.633333333



Except that it is entirely unrealistic to say that someone's bass percentile will normally duplicate their guitar percentile. On songs where bass is simpler, then that percentile is wide open, from the pure talent perspective.


I do know that from my experience with rb1, the best guitarists are some of the best squeezers. I highly doubt that any medicre guitar player is going to outsqueeze a top guitarist on bass. Im not saying all of them are, but they do generally have more experience with pathing and squeezing. =/
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midgetspy  
 




Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beingmused wrote:
Except that it is entirely unrealistic to say that someone's bass percentile will normally duplicate their guitar percentile. On songs where bass is simpler, then that percentile is wide open, from the pure talent perspective.


It's completely realistic: look at the bass leaderboards. Only for maybe 10 songs total is bass so easy that there is a multiple-way tie for 1st, on 90%+ of the songs there is a clear difference between the top 10. Excluding optimal ties, what separates the people on the leaderboards other than skill... luck? Fact is that unless the song is so easy that everybody ties for 1st, there will be a separation at the top and that separation will be by skill (what else could it be?). And that skill will (at least roughly) correlate to the same distribution as it does on guitar.

Do you agree that in general, the better you are at guitar the better you are at bass? Of course that's true. It's not true for any other instruments, which is why G+B combined should only be given as much consideration as each of the other instruments. If you give any instrument less consideration than G+B combined, you're weighting guitar playing more heavily than the other instruments.
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beingmused  
 




Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 2475
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProffessorJoe wrote:

I do know that from my experience with rb1, the best guitarists are some of the best squeezers. I highly doubt that any medicre guitar player is going to outsqueeze a top guitarist on bass. Im not saying all of them are, but they do generally have more experience with pathing and squeezing. =/


But pathing and squeezing are largely independent skills from talent. You might need talent to put those two skills into use, but lots of people are great at guitar but don't do pathing/squeezing, and same for other instruments (azurite is a good example on drums, and woozerkristen on vocals). You can't lump squeezing-ability in with guitar skills.

The OMB is not supposed to pit guitarists against vocalists against drummers - it is supposed to be for people who can do everything. Even the drummer and vocalist "specialists" are all likely to have a high level of bass competency - in the vast majority of cases, everyone will be able to compete for that bass FC. If there is a song that is tough on guitar, drums, and vocals, but relatively simple on bass, then the best guitarist - unlike the other two instruments - is not rewarded with the top percentile for performing the best at that part.
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beingmused  
 




Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 2475
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

midgetspy wrote:

Do you agree that in general, the better you are at guitar the better you are at bass? Of course that's true. It's not true for any other instruments, which is why G+B combined should only be given as much consideration as each of the other instruments. If you give any instrument less consideration than G+B combined, you're weighting guitar playing more heavily than the other instruments.


Yes, from a talent perspective, guitar talent more or less gives you bass talent. But talent is different from the time and effort that goes into pathing and squeezing, which is what the difference will boil down to for most of the top participants. Coming up with your own path (many rb2 ones aren't publicly released, and almost no DLC ones are) and executing them take a considerable amount of effort, and you get half of the rewards for your efforts for working out a guitar path than you would a vocals or drums path. It puts skilled guitarists at a competitive disadvantage to require them to do twice the amount of work to get the same ranking they would have otherwise - when in most cases they'll probably end up worse, since it is fairly likely that vocalists and drummers can be skilled enough to execute a good bass path and make the guitarist's work null and void.

Good scores take talent + effort and time. While the new system succeeds in rewarding the 3 kinds of talent equally, it does not do so with time and effort. I feel like my suggestion is the only one thus far that attempts to balance those competing needs.
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BowlZ  
 




Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 1469
Location: Aurora, Ohio

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shouldn't being a drums AND vox specialist (like myself yes) be BETTER than being G/B specialist? a WIDER array of skill on two totally different instruments that require completely independent talents should be rewarded in this league rather than doing the same style instrument. Any way you slice it the best guitarist is going to be the best bassist too (maybe not THE best but definitly up there). Look at the numbers from last year. Like most merely above average guitarists I can FC almost every bass chart but im not good enough to squeeze or follow a strict path. While I may not wholly agree with deimos' original weighting something did in fact need to be done. i agree that gtr needs to be weighted more than bass, but a 1st on G and B shouldnt outweigh a 1st on D and V

furthermore, you're implying that people are either a G/b Specialist or a D/V specialist, thats very much so not the case. the majority of people are very good at 1. Those who take 2 categories (strum-drum-sing being the 3 categories) should outweigh someone in one and someone in all 3 should beat someone in 2

all in all from last years experience the winner was the person who deserved to win yes, but it made it hard for a non guitarist to beat a guitarist when they had 1/2 or the competition won off the bat
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Last edited by BowlZ on Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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MACGYVERRRRRRRRR  
 




Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 605
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd suggest doing a 30/30/20/20 split, just because getting good scores on both G/B will take twice as long (in theory) as getting a good score on D or V, so I think there should be a slight point advantage for the extra time.

But anyway, probably just stick with the 33/33/33 rules for this season instead of trying to second guess it, and we'll see how it works, and hopefully come up with an improvment if it ends up not working.
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Mushy2008  
  
  



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1725
Location: Indianapolis Indiana

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just glad I'm beast at all instruments... *toot* *toot*
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beingmused  
 




Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 2475
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MACGYVERRRRRRRRR wrote:
I'd suggest doing a 30/30/20/20 split, just because getting good scores on both G/B will take twice as long (in theory) as getting a good score on D or V, so I think there should be a slight point advantage for the extra time.

But anyway, probably just stick with the 33/33/33 rules for this season instead of trying to second guess it, and we'll see how it works, and hopefully come up with an improvment if it ends up not working.


Yeah, I was suggesting something assuming next season...its fine that guitar gets the short end of the stick this go around, seeing as though it had an edge in leagues prior. But guitar should have more than a 16% impact on the final score...your suggestion is another fine means of trying to balance it all out.
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cdylan13  
 




Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 5826
Location: Richmond, VA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow this really tempts me to try out this league for more than a week like last time lol! Great change.
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beberle2  
 




Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 1688
Location: Colorado Where The Snow is YELLOW!??!

PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol good rule. i am not awsome at drums of vox but i am awsome at guitar/bass. lol
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Kratos  
 




Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 1228

PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um.

Squeezing and pathing have absolutely no correlation to how good you are at hitting notes, FCing songs, and such.

I always saw one man band league skill correlate to

Guitar: Mainly hitting the most notes, how fast you can move your fingers.

Bass: How well people can path/squeeze, considering 95% of scorehero can FC 75% of the bass songs or more.

Either way, this system rewards those who are better at more instruments. The better you are at everything, the more this system will benefit you. I'll give an example

Lets say the song was TKAR. I would say that only a couple people entered in this league could FC it on guitar, so lets say I would get 95 points for this week. However, I suck at pathing and squeezing. Some of the people that perhaps couldn't FC it can beat me at bass because its so easy, and I can't squeeze. So I would get 50. Lets be generous and say I FC on vox and -1 or 2 on drums

Old system: 95/50/90/90 = 325/400

81.25

New system: ((95+50)/2)/90/90 = 252.5/300

84.16

Hooray for me. But lets say I'm rather mediocre at drums and vox. I should be doing a guitar league, because I'm good, and I'm good at squeezing. But I'm going for it anyway

Old system: 95/90/50/50 = 285/400

71.25

New system: ((95+90)/2)/50/50 = 192.5/300

64.16

But wait, what if I'm mediocre at drums and vocals AND I cant squeeze for shit?

Old system: 95/50/50/50 = 245/400

61.25

New system: 72.5/50/50 = 172.5/300

57.5


So basically, if you're good at everything, you're going to get a boost. If you're really good at playing guitar and squeezing, you're going to get hit. If you're only good at guitar, and you cant squeeze, you shouldn't be entering this league anyway, and you're completely screwed. This system rewards those it should reward, those who are best at the most things. This puts a bit of a bell curve on the scores, which is what any good grading system should have. Even on something like a 50/90/80/80 system for those who can squeeze but cant FC lolsolos they get a benefit.

tl;dr: You should only be worrying about this if you're only good at one specific thing and suck at everything else, at which point you should be entering that particular league rather than this one

Ow...thats a bit harsh I'm sorry about that.
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CraZy  
 




Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 616
Location: Brooklyn, NY

PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree with Kratos. (not to come off as a dick or anything, like kratos stated) this league is made for people who can play fairly well in all instruments, or even 3/4. therefore, those people should have the benefit of the doubt. when it came down to the people who were really good at guitar/bass, but could only get by on drums/vox on med or hard, they would end up dominating because their expertise was counted double, whereas someone who is good at drums and vox, pretty good at bass, but (like kratos said) can't hit solos for anything, were getting beat up by the guitar people.

sum it up, i like the new scoring system, seems like it will work out to benefit those who deserve the benefit of the doubt, people who actually play every instrument. i think we will know after two weeks whether or not this new way is good.

good luck to all this season!

p34nUt
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beingmused  
 




Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 2475
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kratos -

No matter how bad at squeezing you are, it is remarkably unlikely that anyone will put up a 90 percentile in guitar and a 50 in bass. VERY unlikely.

The problem boils down to the fact that there are two competing agendas: fair rewards for talent distribution, and fair rewards for pathing/squeezing/time/effort. A change needed to be made for the sake of the former, but the change as it stands screws over the 2nd half of the equation. Assuming you want to keep all 4 instruments in this for future leagues, the middle ground must be accommodated.
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