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Sully 
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 4570
Location: Tampa, FL
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Yen24 wrote: | | Release it. Make Rock Band a game of skill again, not a game of having a better path. |
How is having a better path not part of the skill? If pathing was not intended to add to the equation, then there'd be no Overdrive and straight-up playing skill would be all that mattered. I say let's develop bots to play for us and then all that will matter is pathing skills.
Oh, and qdubs- that analogy was absolutely terrible. |
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Metalteeth
Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 1131
Location: Columbus, OH
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Sully wrote: | I've spent almost two years developing my "pathing skills," so I'm against the public release of a program like this.
Yes, pathing is a skill. It takes a bunch of time. I often "release" paths when I find them, but sometimes I don't- especially Full Band paths since they can take hours to create.
How is it selfish not to share the fruits of my labors? It might take me two hours to find a first place path for a song in single player. I may have to play the song 20 times to test tweaks and to find out of certain squeezes are possible. And that's just one song. Averaged out for over hundreds of songs over multiple instrument iterations, I'm sure I've spent over a hundred hours making paths. And I should just make them all public to not be selfish?
Anyone can make basic paths for songs with very little time that will generally land them within a few thousand points of top scores. If you want top scores, you should have to devote the time to learning how to path and then devote the time to making paths. If you aren't willing to invest the time, then you don't deserve top scores. |
Your argument is valid, except for one flaw.
You post your videos online. Everyone can see the general path. You might not see the EXACT squeeze, but the general optimal path is there.
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Kawigi
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 2879
Location: Redmond, WA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| BobDole wrote: | | ...I know that I certainly don't have time to be writing paths for songs, and I'm sure many other people feel the same way... |
That seems like a good enough reason, to me at least, for you to not have a first place score on those songs :-)
That being said, one of the great things about scorehero is the freeness with which people share their techniques and their paths with each other, even when it puts them at a competitive disadvantage when they do. This is done under the assumption that if they contribute, others will as well, and they will eventually benefit as others similarly give up their best techniques and paths.
Particularly when a game is fresh and new, those who are willing to put the time into analysis and pathing deserve to be on top of the leaderboards. That's why we saw Piso take the fast lead on the RB2 guitar leaderboards rather than Razzmatazz - Razzmatazz was the first to FC the game but Piso was the first to find great paths for many of the songs (and, of course, he has impressive playing skills, too :-) ).
I agree that for now, you should hold off on at least releasing computer-generated paths for RB2 on-disc songs, just as I have with my computer-generated drum paths. The game is still new and current, and it's brand new on PS3. Let the players have some time to find their own paths, and then eventually give them the rest of what they couldn't figure out. Part of being in this part of a game's cycle is that the "pathers" get their advantage along with the opportunity to contribute paths and take credit for finding them, and while that my sound tribal, it's also a significant part of what scorehero is.
As for RB1 songs, I don't think there needs to be any particular hesitation with those. People have already spent as much time as they want to find RB1 paths.
DLC is an odd question. I've decided to keep releasing CG drum paths for DLC because it's a less competitive area, and is less likely to be thoroughly pathed by hand. However, guitar may be different from drums in that respect.
By the way, the file opens fine in IE as well. I like the ascii chart rendering :-)
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Rickles
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 1441
Location: The people in white coats won't tell me!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Sully wrote: | | Yen24 wrote: | | Release it. Make Rock Band a game of skill again, not a game of having a better path. |
How is having a better path not part of the skill? If pathing was not intended to add to the equation, then there'd be no Overdrive and straight-up playing skill would be all that mattered. I say let's develop bots to play for us and then all that will matter is pathing skills.
Oh, and qdubs- that analogy was absolutely terrible. |
Because the path is the tool, not the project.
I don't look at an awesome new song, and say "hey i can't wait to spend an hour figuring that out!" and I'm sure that I'm not alone in this. I want to be the best player. Not the person who is best at making paths. Squeezing is skillful and their is no argument against that. I'm sorry Sully that you are alone in this battle, and i understand why you want to defend your interest's as a skilled path maker. But It would be unfair to the rest of us who have been waiting for this since RB1 hit for a way to competitively play this game. You said yourself, "Yes, pathing is a skill. It takes a bunch of time." And i Completely agree, but i don't think that the top players (or those aspiring to be) should have to deal with this.
If we all know the path, we all start at zero. If we all make our own path, some of us start at -200. Others start off at -20,000.
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ES942
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3445
Location: Snalbans
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Sully wrote: | | Oh, and qdubs- that analogy was absolutely terrible. |
Yes, it was. It's more like, "Hey, I've worked my whole life for all of this money. Why should I have to provide health care for everybody else just because they're less privileged?
And to Rickles, if what you're saying is true, that overdrive use is not part of becoming a better player, why would they have put it in the game? Overdrive use is another aspect of the game that adds to being the best player. It's not just about hitting the notes. Top players don't deal with this. If you are 'aspiring' to be a top player, you'll take the time to work out a path on your own.
The problem with Guitar/Bass paths, is that they're exponentially more complicated than Drums or Vocals.
I'm saying don't release it.
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Strykerx
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 3110
Location: Pants
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Rickles wrote: | | I'm sorry Sully that you are alone in this battle |
I'm at least on his side. I really don't see the giant attraction in this one... finding paths adds a new element to the game. It does not "take hours" to figure out an outline of a path. If you want every last point and for it to be perfect, sure, but you can get close in under 5 minutes of work. Or you could even look at this topic or the wiki. Don't even tell me you don't have the 2 minutes to click one of those topics and read. If you're that pressed for time, how the hell are you playing Rock Band anyway? The point is, even if this is released, odds are your rank will not go up anyway. The same people will be on top as always. Hell, your rank on songs will be likely to go down, with more people using the "correct" path.
You can't POSSIBLY expect to be "the best" or get a top score without putting in some kind of extra effort, because there will ALWAYS be someone that did.
...bah.
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Lasfas
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 1005
Location: South Phoenix, AZ.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Obviously the Best players want it not released, so they could keep their First place/High Rank
If it is a Skill to path, why not release it? It's like taking down all the TTFAF help Threads, because it is a Skill to know how to play the song, and you need the skill to know how to play the Intro.
And wasn't the Scorehero Forums made to discuss on how to hit that "Hard section in the song", or teach from person to person how to improve, but only this time, it is now for a score?
Please release it.
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Last edited by Lasfas on Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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beingmused 
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 2475
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ES942 wrote: |
Yes, it was. It's more like, "Hey, I've worked my whole life for all of this money. Why should I have to provide health care for everybody else just because they're less privileged? |
Because the system and society that which makes it possible for you to earn that money is predicated upon healthy consumers. The upper and middle classes do not earn their money or get to enjoy the benefits of it without the presence and exploitation of a larger lower class; their existence and health is directly necessary for your wealth.
Or, because it is the ethical thing to do.
But that has nothing to do with pathing! As far as that is concerned, I have been trying to figure out what the proper amount of time is to release RB2 full band paths I've been working on (which take way longer than single player paths). I'm currently thinking a month after they are used might be a good window of time.
Why not hold back from releasing the program, but release all of the paths one month after each song is released? Although you might not want to weekly do that kind of thing. |
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TehAx3
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 234
Location: Philadelphia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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How about a refrence program where it would tell you if you have the right path if inputted correctly?
Last edited by TehAx3 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rickles
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 1441
Location: The people in white coats won't tell me!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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I understand what everyone is trying to say, but i offer another analogy which will surely be shot down.
Well I understand that people have put a lot of time and effort into pathing, but why rub two sticks together when you already have a bic lighter? Does putting in the effort, make you better? Does it show that you care more? Or does it show that you are clinging to inferior ways because you know no one else wants to to waste their time with them?
It's working in reverse. Not having a reliable path has alienated me from competition In rockband. And i am not alone in this.
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Regardless I support the idea of a compromised Release. Surely neither side of this argument, is going to see the other sides point.
This is how the king of auto pathing, Debr did it for all of the guitar hero games. He released it on a set date a few months after each game, starting with rock the 80's
I vote that you release it on January first. But Of course, it's all up to the OP as when and whether. What say you guys?
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Strykerx
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 3110
Location: Pants
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like I won't be able to prevent the disc songs from being released. That sucks. Whatever you decide, PLEASE do not immediately release paths for DLC.
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xeroxgp 
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 1682
Location: Fargo, ND
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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It doesn't matter if you delay the release of the perfect path. In fact, that's even more of a slight towards manual pathers, they spend the month or whatever to work it out, and then it gets release and everybody can do it. Completely unvalidates that person's work on the path.
I'm now leaning towards "don't release this". Hey, it's your program, do with it what you will, but releasing it will take away from the experience of the game. It is a skill to path, and if you want to get higher scores, you gotta take the time to figure it out.
I kind of don't even think people should reveal what they have pathed, although it's nice of them to do so.
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Rickles
Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 1441
Location: The people in white coats won't tell me!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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A mod should make this a 2 week poll.
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Chil
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Posts: 850
Location: Delaware
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| gdubs wrote: | | I'm a professional mathematician, so I'm against calculators |
| ES942 wrote: | | Hey, I've worked my whole life for all of this money. Why should I have to provide health care for everybody else just because they're less privileged? |
Both of these are wrong. A calculator is a tool to achieve an answer, not the answer itself. The healthcare one just makes no sense, since you are not giving up your score to someone else, just the way you used to get it (assuming that your path was optimal in the first place).
My opinion is to not release it. I feel that pathing is one part of the skill required to be at the top and anyone who is too lazy to figure out a path is just that, too lazy. I fall into the too lazy category since I'm not gonna waste hours of my time figuring out an optimal score. For those that do have that time or find it worthwhile, good for you and you deserve the top spot.
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JRyder 
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Posts: 1274
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Rickles wrote: | | A mod should make this a 2 week poll. |
It should only be a poll if we can continue to have a conversation about this. We shouldn't just be posting or vote as "Yea" or "Nay", if we do we should have to defend our stance and answer the opposition.
I don't have a position on this necessarily, pathing is a satisfying experience but one that takes valuable time away from actually playing the game. Although reading a path and memorizing it kinda does the same thing. So consider me on the fence, but we shouldn't bother with a poll if it adds nothing to the civil (for now) conversation we're having.
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