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socialskills
Joined: 26 Jun 2007 Posts: 589
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: What are "worthy" multitasking FC's? |
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So there's a RB.SH Accomplishment Timeline, with a section called "Vocal/Vocal+1 Accomplishments" (the "Vocal+1" meaning any of the 3 Vocal+ multitasking configurations), which is currently devoid of any multitasking accomplishments. A reply in the thread mentions violinhero86's legendary voxtar FC of Run to the Hills, but that hasn't made it into the OP yet.
I thought it might be interesting to discuss what qualifies as "worthy" for this kind of thread. VH's RTTH FC is obviously worthy no matter how you slice it (as would a voxtar FC of any incredibly difficult guitar song; GGAHT, TKAR, etc.), but I get the feeling that the general public (i.e. majority non-multitaskers) views things like Electric Version, Suffragette City, Outside, Tom Sawyer voxtar FC's, etc., as unworthy simply because none of those songs are perceived as incredibly difficult to FC on guitar solo or vocals solo.
I'll try to phrase all of that into a question: Is it possible to define what sets a difficult multitasked FC apart from the difficulty of each of its parts? _________________
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TheMurder
Joined: 04 Aug 2008 Posts: 54 Location: Killing You, New York.
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Possibly the combined weight (as in difficulty) of the strumming in each area that is simultaneously. For example, take "In Bloom." In the verses there isn't much strumming/vocals simultaneously and the chorus has a very simple pattern, thereby creating a relatively easy voxtar FC. On the other hand, stuff like Reptilia has two hard parts - repeatedly changing and quick guitaring that would be of decent difficulty normally, and off-key/off-beat vocals qualifies as either a great or decent Voxtar FC, depending on how you slice the pie (as in are vocals or guitar more impressive?) |
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machchunk
Joined: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 3829 Location: Pasco, WA
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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VH's Flirtin' With Disaster FC is probably the second most impressive voxtar FC you could possibly get, first being GG&HT of course. Especially if he hit all those tambos while playing that solo _________________
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socialskills
Joined: 26 Jun 2007 Posts: 589
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: |
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TheMurder wrote: | Possibly the combined weight (as in difficulty) of the strumming in each area that is simultaneously. For example, take "In Bloom." In the verses there isn't much strumming/vocals simultaneously and the chorus has a very simple pattern, thereby creating a relatively easy voxtar FC. On the other hand, stuff like Reptilia has two hard parts - repeatedly changing and quick guitaring that would be of decent difficulty normally, and off-key/off-beat vocals qualifies as either a great or decent Voxtar FC, depending on how you slice the pie (as in are vocals or guitar more impressive?) |
Great examples. Using your method as a way to really focus in, I took a look at the main setlist and wrote up a list of songs that you could argue should be included in the RB.SH Accomplishments Timeline, but may not be because of their tiering/perception of the difficulty of the song on solo instruments:
Creep (maybe a stretch, as there certainly is a perception that this is hard to FC on guitar)
Seven (it's a wall of chords, but oddly enough only voxtarists have double-FC'd it; no 2-man group has FC'd it on the Expert board)
Sabotage and When You Were Young (assuming that "rubbing" the difficult phrases is not possible while voxtaring)
Suffragette City (Seriously. Try it.)
Outside and Reptilia (As mentioned before)
Foreplay/Long Time
Again, I mean for this thread to be about songs that wouldn't strike non-multitaskers as "hard to FC." Just to make it clear, here are the songs that would be included in a post like RB.SH Timeline just because of the perception of the difficulty of one or both instruments (for voxtarists):
Highway Star, Flirtin' With Disaster, Won't Get Fooled Again, Green Grass and High Tides, Next to You, Timmy and Lords of the Underworld, Brainpower, Train Kept A Rollin'. I think we can all agree that those are automatically in and probably don't need to be discussed. _________________
Accomplishments
- Over 110 million solo RB1 points!
- 2,029 of 2,030 possible solo RB1 stars!
- All 3,255 RB1 BWT stars collected (solo, voxtar, expert)
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TheMurder
Joined: 04 Aug 2008 Posts: 54 Location: Killing You, New York.
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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On an off note... you know what would be fun? Trying to hit the vocal percussion with your head while you're voxtaring.
On an on note, a songs that would be good for practice at some points and than difficult at other points would be War Pigs (easy at "Generals gathered in their masse_s" part, hard at "Politicans hide themselves away.") so that may or may not be a worthy Voxtar FC. |
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SilverSwift
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 2057
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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I think that Suffragette City and Foreplay/Longtime are two that really deserve mention. Flirtin' is tough almost entirely due to guitar, whereas both of the above are insane on vox, and tough on guitar. How you got the former, socialskills, is beyond me. =P
I'd also put Outside as a really great voxtar FC to have. Check the leaderboards, and aside from VH, there's a notable lack of FCs. That guitar part is hard, and vocals are no slouch either. Plus, it's my favourite song.
That aside? Highway Star is insane, Timmy, Creep, Seven (in response to the socialskills, I think it's the vocals that people struggle with, I think- if only due to the sheer number of phrases), and Can't Let Go. Also, personally I think Brainpower is absolutely insane. Singing whilst hitting those triplets...ouch.
socialskills: The 2nd post was good in regards to your question, but I'll take a different tangent. It's all about public perception of the charts themselves- for instance, Machchunk said that Flirtin' is the second-most impressive voxtar FC, when it's just not. The vocals are very easy for an expert, and whilst the guitar is nuts, it's nowhere near RttH or other songs. If one chart is significantly hard in it's individual instrument category, then the according voxtar FC is deemed more impressive. Therefore, stuff like Reptilia, Suffragette City and so forth get overlooked. _________________
emptyset wrote: | I should ban you all and never look back. |
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socialskills
Joined: 26 Jun 2007 Posts: 589
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Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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SilverSwift wrote: | How you got the former, socialskills, is beyond me. =P |
Aw shucks. Just got lucky! ;) I should mention right here and now that I totally didn't mean for this thread to become an supplemental accomplishments thread for myself, even though it may appear that way.
I understand that some of the songs that I am describing as really hard to voxtar FC are conveniently also songs that I have voxtar FC'd, but I'm really making an honest effort to be objective with these choices. In fact, I would love if people reading this would just ignore my accomplishments altogether.
SilverSwift wrote: | Highway Star is insane, Timmy, Creep, Seven (in response to the socialskills, I think it's the vocals that people struggle with, I think- if only due to the sheer number of phrases), and Can't Let Go. Also, personally I think Brainpower is absolutely insane. Singing whilst hitting those triplets...ouch. |
The ones you added to my list- Can't Let Go and Brainpower- are excellent additions. Can't Let Go has those tricky (not necessarily hard, but definitely tricky) chord switches, plus the weird pitches during some parts of the vocals. I didn't include it only because I'm perfectly capable of an FC, so it can't be that hard
Brainpower is one that I think has a very slim chance of being FC'd outside of a huge commitment by VH to do so, but I think I left it off of my list because it's already seen as a "worthy" FC on guitar alone. I like the fact that you brought it up, though, because now that I think about it, an FC on guitar is exceptional, but a voxtar FC would be mindblowing; possibly the equivalent of a solo drum FC of WGFA.
SilverSwift wrote: | It's all about public perception of the charts themselves- for instance, Machchunk said that Flirtin' is the second-most impressive voxtar FC, when it's just not. The vocals are very easy for an expert, and whilst the guitar is nuts, it's nowhere near RttH or other songs. If one chart is significantly hard in it's individual instrument category, then the according voxtar FC is deemed more impressive. Therefore, stuff like Reptilia, Suffragette City and so forth get overlooked. |
Excellent points. Nothing against machchunk, who, IIRC, is a pretty good voxtarist as well, but I agree that FWD's difficulty is attributable only to its guitar part; the actual multitasking aspect of it isn't very hard at all IMO. And obviously I agree with the sentiment that Reptilia and SC will probably be overlooked more often than not, and that's exactly the thought I had in mind when I started this thread. I wonder what it would take for the public at large to not overlook voxtar FC's on those kinds of songs? _________________
Accomplishments
- Over 110 million solo RB1 points!
- 2,029 of 2,030 possible solo RB1 stars!
- All 3,255 RB1 BWT stars collected (solo, voxtar, expert)
Voxtar guide. |
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qirex
Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 1057
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: |
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socialskills wrote: |
Brainpower is one that I think has a very slim chance of being FC'd outside of a huge commitment by VH to do so, but I think I left it off of my list because it's already seen as a "worthy" FC on guitar alone. I like the fact that you brought it up, though, because now that I think about it, an FC on guitar is exceptional, but a voxtar FC would be mindblowing; possibly the equivalent of a solo drum FC of WGFA.
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I disagree - the vocal line in Brainpower during the triplets is incredibly simple.
(insert your flirtin-with-disaster argument here)
Would it be fucking incredible to double-FC it? Yes, absolutely. But in my opinion, it's not *much* harder than the guitar part alone (which I agree is fucking incredible in an of itself.)
One of the big problems we have currently is a severe lack of accomplished multi-taskers (present company excluded, etc.). So it's hard to draw any conclusive results from the data itself. What we really need is several people earnestly trying for voxtar FCs, at which point we can compare stats like "what songs do you have FC'ed on both guitar and vox, but not as a voxtarist" to get some ideas.
FWIW: any song/combination that *I* have 2xFCed can be considered "not impressive" - relatively speaking. _________________
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machchunk
Joined: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 3829 Location: Pasco, WA
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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SilverSwift wrote: | Machchunk said that Flirtin' is the second-most impressive voxtar FC, when it's just not. The vocals are very easy for an expert, and whilst the guitar is nuts, it's nowhere near RttH or other songs. |
FCing the guitar part, tambos included, while singing against the rhythm of the guitar the entire time and barely having any major breaks on vocals isn't that impressive? Have you at least tried to do it? _________________
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SilverSwift
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 2057
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:35 am Post subject: |
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machchunk wrote: | FCing the guitar part, tambos included, while singing against the rhythm of the guitar the entire time and barely having any major breaks on vocals isn't that impressive? Have you at least tried to do it? |
Never said it wasn't impressive...it definitely would be. It's just not 2nd-best behind GGaHT, which is what you said. =P It's a great FC, no doubt there, and likely in the top 10, but it is primarily due to the guitar part. As socialskills said, by and large the vocals are simple. The tambos add another element of difficulty, but it's nothing compared to the guitar. And yes, I have tried to do it, and no I haven't got anywhere on it, primarily because I can't get above 98% on solo guitar. I've FC'd the vocals a few times, and compared to the other multitaskers, I'm fairly useless. Best I can do is a double -1 on Outside.
socialskills/qirex: Interesting points, especially on Brainpower. The vocal line is relatively simple, but even to sustain a level pitch during those triplets is difficult...for me, at least. That said, I'm sure someone'll get it eventually. And we do need people going after these FCs actively, I agree- but aside from you two, VH, Machchunk, sentimentalgeek and a few others, genuine contenders for double X voxtar FCs are thin on the ground, so it's tough to drag data out, as you say. Voxtar FC rivalry, maybe? =P
Also, to add to the list slightly further:
Gimme Shelter: What do we think? Immensely tough vocals, and to be fair, the guitar part (whilst easy by itself) could prove trickier when you're trying to fumble your way through that mess of a vocal track. Another one that could be easily overlooked.
I'm So Sick: I find that guitar part easy to choke on, and the vocals are a pain. Though I'm not sure if it's hard enough to warrant inclusion.
Cherub Rock: Very underrated song, guitar needs concentration and vocals are tough if you don't know what you're doing.
The definitive list thus far, then(?):
-Run to the Hills
-Foreplay/Longtime
-Timmy
-Suffragette City
-Outside
-Flirtin' With Disaster
-Green Grass and High Tides
-Highway Star
-Train Kept a Rollin'
-Reptilia
I'm not sure on the others as being definites. For instance...should Next To You be considered? Obviously it's insane if you can hit the 'Ow!' in the same run as double FCing both instruments, but if that one phrase wasn't there, it'd be relatively easy. =P
tl;dr version: Swift sucks at summarising opinions. _________________
emptyset wrote: | I should ban you all and never look back. |
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socialskills
Joined: 26 Jun 2007 Posts: 589
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Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:24 am Post subject: |
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machchunk wrote: | FCing the guitar part, tambos included, while singing against the rhythm of the guitar the entire time and barely having any major breaks on vocals isn't that impressive? Have you at least tried to do it? |
The tambos are the strongest part of your argument. I think it's a misconception that the singing occurs "against the rhythm of the guitar" because, as far as I can tell, the notes for the guitar fall directly onto the syllables that you're singing and the little noodling parts fall in between vocal lines.
Perhaps as a thought experiment we should remove the solo from FWD. Your tambo comment is duly noted, but if you remove the solo from the song (because the solo is really what forces the song to be considered difficult on guitar alone, while what we're concerned about is the multitasking aspect alone), FWD becomes a pretty easy voxtar FC.
At that point, in my opinion, Outside, Suffragette City, Brainpower, and Train Kept A Rollin' would outrank FWD (again, strictly from a multitasking standpoint). In fact, GGAHT would probably even fall beneath FWD because, again, there isn't a lot of multitasking going on during difficult sections (although GGAHT is the nastiest tambo section a voxtarist will ever have to deal with).
As for Brainpower, I agree with SilverSwift regarding qirex's comment. A good voxtarist probably gets where they are by being able to split their focus just enough to cover each part, but I can't delegate enough focus to that guitar part without slipping up on the vocals. It probably just takes a better voxtarist than I am.
SilverSwift: I like your list. I agree that I'm So Sick is easy to choke on, and people may find that the kind of drastic octave switching that most people use for ISS while voxtaring may be too much for them to handle. The reason that I didn't include it on there was that it was relatively easy for me to get (2 FC's in my 1st 3 tries when I sat down to get it). I probably had a few fluke runs, so it's a good inclusion.
I think that the difficulty of Gimme Shelter rests solely with the vocal track, so I personally wouldn't include it. I'm trying to learn the vocals well enough to FC it solo, and after that I'll try it on voxtar and report back.
Cherub Rock is another song that I find incredibly easy, but then again in another thread a lot of people find Dead on Arrival to be one of the hardest songs, whereas I find it to be very easy. So we may need more input to figure out where it stands.
Sorry for the long post everyone, but I just love these kinds of deep discussions _________________
Accomplishments
- Over 110 million solo RB1 points!
- 2,029 of 2,030 possible solo RB1 stars!
- All 3,255 RB1 BWT stars collected (solo, voxtar, expert)
Voxtar guide. |
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qirex
Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 1057
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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socialskills wrote: |
The tambos are the strongest part of your argument. |
In many cases, the tambourines are exactly what sets apart a "very good" FC from a "worthy" one, and could easily be a determining factor. With 2 separate players, the tambourines can be considered "gimmes", but this isn't the case when multitasking.
As you know, SS, I'm sort of trying to get a 2xFC on GG&HT (on drums/vocals). There's nothing particularly super-difficult about that except the sheer length of the song/plenty of places to choke. (or pad-miss, if your kit sucks, which mine doesn't). To me, that'd be merely a "very nice" accomplishment, but adding the tambos in against the drum beat would definitely push it into the "worthy" column, IMO.
Compare to something like a TKAR voxtar 100%, which wouldn't need the tambourines to be 'worthy'. (but a TKAR voxtar 100% WITH tambourines would be even *more* worthy.)
just something else to consider... _________________
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Unimportant196
Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 1799 Location: Omaha, Nebraska
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Trie Highway star. On bass. Now that would be an awesome accomplishment. And also Joker and the thief would be pretty cool, too. _________________
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sentimentalgeek
Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 1075 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Nice topic! Sorry to be chiming in so late - I haven't been posting for the past couple weeks. I agree that some vocals+1 accomplishments may be overlooked due to perceived ease of the separate parts.
For me, Dead On Arrival, or really any reasonably high tempo chordfest, is rather challenging on guitar+vox for one reason primarily: I'm a downstrummer. (in b4 "lrntoaltstrum" comments) A lot of rapid, relatively constant downstrumming will interfere with my ability to control my singing, and vice versa. Electric Version is the same deal.
Anyway, I will agree with you that Suffragette City and Outside are probably some of the more overlooked songs that are challenging for voxtarists. The constant chord changes in Suffragette City along with David Bowie's rather pitchy vocals (interspersed with some finicky talkies) definitely gives me a lot to think about!
For Outside, I can see the hopo sequences in the verses giving people trouble while trying to sing. Personally that doesn't trip me up quite as much as the chord sequences that come in the latter part of the song. over and over again is quite chokeable even when it's the only thing on your mind, but when you're having to control your breath and hold long notes at the same time, it can be a workout, at least for me.
Oh, and I haven't actually tried this out on vocals or voxtar yet, but having played it on guitar only, I would imagine crushcrushcrush having a similar issue/difficulty level as Suffragette City on the voxtar front. I'm not the greatest plastic guitar player,but i was actually surprised by how tricky they decided to make some of the chord jumps.
Er, this post is getting long... I'll try to think about other songs that provide a unique challenge to multitaskers and come back for more discussion if anyone's still interested in this topic. _________________
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mobotix309
Joined: 19 Jul 2008 Posts: 39 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Any song u think you really know u can do! _________________
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Return one.
And use the third for "ScoreHero Testing Purposes". Strength of the bass pedal, do they work underwater, do you get double hits if you use a banana instead of a drum stick, you know, the usual problems people face. | You cannot beat my roflcopter. its equiped with lolocannons.
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