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mr-apples
Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 963
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 Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I think the new no-fail setting is a mixed bag. Convenient yes, but I think there needs to be a dis-incentive to using it.
Because there is no dis-incentive, I am seeing it become the default option all the time. And that drastically changes the dynamics of how people play.
People are more willing to play "above their level" which makes the song sound atrocious. And it diminishes the sense of accomplishment passing a challenging song.
Part of the fun in some of the devil tier songs was knowing that you could fail out at any given time, and that a pass was not 100% assured. It takes away the whole strategy element of saving overdrive, helping out bandmates, etc.
I think almost everyone has fun and memorable experiences in the past where a band barely eeked its way through a difficult song, or a band member failed out and was saved by a clutch unison phrase, etc. |
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blingdomepiece 
Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 4358
Location: Ottawa ON Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| mr-apples wrote: | | Because there is no dis-incentive, I am seeing it become the default option all the time. And that drastically changes the dynamics of how people play. |
One good effect is that we can play songs we like but can't pass. For example I like Prequel to the Sequel a lot as a song, but I've only passed it once, which needless to say makes it not much fun to play (I'm sure good at that minute and a half before the blasts now though). In fact for blasts it may help some of us who tense up too much for them to be able to play songs with them without the fear of failure.
So far I am not willing to use no-fail, unless it's a drum song with blast beats, because I think HMX's timing window tightening for fast blasts is BS.
_________________
Expert Pro Keys: 50/63 GS, most recent The Killing Moon
Expert Pro Drums: 53/83 GS, most recent Free Bird / Oh My God / Oye Mi Amor
Expert Pro Bass: 6/83 GS, most recent Everybody Wants to Rule the World
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DemonHybrid 
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 2871
Location: Matamoras, PA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| DemonHybrid wrote: | ...I've never had the roadie screen freeze thing happen to me.
I also have never played RB3 online because my school campus is being dumb about me registering my Xbox, so I've received no updates if there have been any.
Played for all of last night and most of today. |
I spoke too soon. Happened last night. |
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e24412
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 341
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| since no fail doesn't disable saving, does that mean i can do the endless setlist without even playing and have it count? |
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Dexterity
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 158
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| jawnintendo wrote: | | Icemage wrote: | | jawnintendo wrote: | Here's one thing that really bugs me:
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before (someone correct me if I'm wrong, whcih I probably am), but there's the fact that no fail DOESN'T disable saving now. What the hell? As a matter of fact, NONE of the modifiers now disables saving. Weird, eh? What happened to the phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"? |
Funny, I consider that one of the GOOD innovations in RB3. |
I don't like it because now people can submit scores for songs they didn't even pass over the leaderboards. |
I agree that it's not that big of a deal, but in some circumstances it is.
Let's say a person can FC a song outside of one really hard part, like a blast section on drums, or 10 seconds of madness in a guitar solo. That person will still have a pretty high score minus the miss, but instead of failing like they should, their score is submitted as legit? Not really fair IMO.
Look at say, Prequel to the Sequel. Outside of the blasts in the middle pretty much everyone could pass that song. Now with this new thing, someone can flail through the blasts, and still post a 5* to the leaderboards. |
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blingdomepiece
Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 4358
Location: Ottawa ON Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Dexterity wrote: | | Let's say a person can FC a song outside of one really hard part, like a blast section on drums, or 10 seconds of madness in a guitar solo. That person will still have a pretty high score minus the miss, but instead of failing like they should, their score is submitted as legit? Not really fair IMO. |
Well, if someone who can pass that song ends up with a lower score than someone who flailed through the fail part, they clearly have some practice to do on the rest of the song.
_________________
Expert Pro Keys: 50/63 GS, most recent The Killing Moon
Expert Pro Drums: 53/83 GS, most recent Free Bird / Oh My God / Oye Mi Amor
Expert Pro Bass: 6/83 GS, most recent Everybody Wants to Rule the World
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toymachine 
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 9629
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| e24412 wrote: | | since no fail doesn't disable saving, does that mean i can do the endless setlist without even playing and have it count? |
Yup
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DorkmasterFlek 
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 1968
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| mr-apples wrote: | I think the new no-fail setting is a mixed bag. Convenient yes, but I think there needs to be a dis-incentive to using it.
Because there is no dis-incentive, I am seeing it become the default option all the time. And that drastically changes the dynamics of how people play.
People are more willing to play "above their level" which makes the song sound atrocious. And it diminishes the sense of accomplishment passing a challenging song.
Part of the fun in some of the devil tier songs was knowing that you could fail out at any given time, and that a pass was not 100% assured. It takes away the whole strategy element of saving overdrive, helping out bandmates, etc.
I think almost everyone has fun and memorable experiences in the past where a band barely eeked its way through a difficult song, or a band member failed out and was saved by a clutch unison phrase, etc. |
This is true, but frankly the only time I ever had no-fail off was when I was playing alone. When people came over, they always wanted no-fail on, because nobody wants to fail at a party. They were also more willing to try hard instead of medium, for example. And yes, it did make the song sound worse, but they eventually improved enough that they were playing the harder difficulty levels regularly and doing well. No-fail actually got them to move up to hard, and eventually expert on the easier songs. This was my experience with it.
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| wlinn751 wrote: | | Everybody likes Boston on some level. They're like a soul detector. Most people don't know this, but vampire hunters carry a Talkboy containing a snippet of More Than A Feeling. Anyone who doesn't smile when they hear it gets staked on the spot. It works flawlessly. |
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005
Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 1283
Location: Dallas
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Letting people submit scores earned in "No Fail" Mode to the leaderboards is bullshit. It encourages people to find ways to maximize their score that don't involve playing the song.
Say I'm trying to get a certain score on a tough song which has a guitar solo. I know I can't do well in the first 30 seconds of the solo, but I think if I'm not tired I can FC the last 30 seconds. I am encouraged to rest my fingers for the first 30 seconds, rather than actually try to play the song, to maximize my score. And that is a chicken shit way to approach the game.
Sigh. Who wants to play some Guitar Hero 2? |
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machetemonkey
Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3043
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| 005 wrote: | Letting people submit scores earned in "No Fail" Mode to the leaderboards is bullshit. It encourages people to find ways to maximize their score that don't involve playing the song.
Say I'm trying to get a certain score on a tough song which has a guitar solo. I know I can't do well in the first 30 seconds of the solo, but I think if I'm not tired I can FC the last 30 seconds. I am encouraged to rest my fingers for the first 30 seconds, rather than actually try to play the song, to maximize my score. And that is a chicken shit way to approach the game.
Sigh. Who wants to play some Guitar Hero 2? |
I think you're really stretching to find an example of how it's bad. I don't think anybody playing for score is going to completely stop playing for 30 seconds just to FC the next part. Odds are any part tiring enough to be worth skipping would earn more points than FC'ing the following section would be worth. At least as far as soloing is concerned.
Basically, sure you can come up with hypothetical examples to disprove the logic of the decision, but realistically they'll never come into play. It's already been beaten to death that anybody seriously playing for score will more than likely not need no-fail on in the first place. EG: Satch Boogie. You could say "well i'll maximize my score for taking a rest every measure or so in the crazy part" but anybody seriously playing for score will just know that they have to learn the part. |
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005
Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 1283
Location: Dallas
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, the example is a stretch. It is to illustrate a point. Here's the bottom line of my perspective: when you can't pass a song, you shouldn't be able to pass the song. There is (or was, I hear it has been gimped) Practice Mode for that.
What is the value to whatever casual or party demographic Harmonix made Rock Band 3 for in saving No Fail scores? That demographic doesn't care about scores in the first place. There is value in having a separate, toggled mode for no-fail play, but it should not be the standard. |
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TheHammer417
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 2178
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| 005 wrote: | Sure, the example is a stretch. It is to illustrate a point. Here's the bottom line of my perspective: when you can't pass a song, you shouldn't be able to pass the song. There is (or was, I hear it has been gimped) Practice Mode for that.
What is the value to whatever casual or party demographic Harmonix made Rock Band 3 for in saving No Fail scores? That demographic doesn't care about scores in the first place. There is value in having a separate, toggled mode for no-fail play, but it should not be the standard. |
I think some of you are missing the point totally.
Not everyone has time to sit in practice mode all day and play the same thing over and over.
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blingdomepiece
Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 4358
Location: Ottawa ON Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| 005 wrote: | Sure, the example is a stretch. It is to illustrate a point.
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An example that relies on an implausible, fictional premise doesn't illustrate anything.
_________________
Expert Pro Keys: 50/63 GS, most recent The Killing Moon
Expert Pro Drums: 53/83 GS, most recent Free Bird / Oh My God / Oye Mi Amor
Expert Pro Bass: 6/83 GS, most recent Everybody Wants to Rule the World
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machetemonkey
Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 3043
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| TheHammer417 wrote: | | 005 wrote: | Sure, the example is a stretch. It is to illustrate a point. Here's the bottom line of my perspective: when you can't pass a song, you shouldn't be able to pass the song. There is (or was, I hear it has been gimped) Practice Mode for that.
What is the value to whatever casual or party demographic Harmonix made Rock Band 3 for in saving No Fail scores? That demographic doesn't care about scores in the first place. There is value in having a separate, toggled mode for no-fail play, but it should not be the standard. |
I think some of you are missing the point totally.
Not everyone has time to sit in practice mode all day and play the same thing over and over. |
to be fair, that's what no-fail is for in the first place. The argument is about the logic behind allowing no-fail runs to have scores submitted officially. |
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qirex
Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 1057
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| 005 wrote: | | What is the value to whatever casual or party demographic Harmonix made Rock Band 3 for in saving No Fail scores? That demographic doesn't care about scores in the first place. |
I can see both sides to this -- but consider someone like me, playing something like.. say... Young Man Blues on drums. I haven't tried yet, but I'm pretty sure the combination of "not quite calibrated yet" + "rock meter drains quicker on RB3" = I'll fail. Every single time. Before I even get past the beginning. (since on RB2 I was deep into the red at that point.)
I don't much care about getting better at the beginning, frankly. I'd rather just play through the song. It's otherwise fun, and I enjoy listening to it and playing along. That doesn't mean I don't care how well I did, overall, or that there's no value in knowing if it was my best performance or not. The alternative, if no-fail scores didn't save, would be that I'd have to write down the score somewhere and (find where I wrote it down/saved it) and compare it in a few weeks when I play it again. I kind of like the fact that the game will write it down for me, personally.
So yeah.. there are certainly scenarios where "that demographic" does indeed care about scores.
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