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footballtom3685 
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 2478
Location: Bay Area, CA
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 Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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I already stated most of this in my first post in the thread, but it was pretty much ignored by most people. I'll keep it short and sweet this time:
21st Century Breakdown, to my surprise, hit #1 on the charts in sixteen countries this year.
American Idiot hit #1 on the charts in nine countries just 5 years ago, two of those countries being the US and the UK.
Dookie hit #1 in two countries, New Zealand and Australia, 15 years ago. (and c'mon, that's with PAL >____>).
Green Day is more popular now than ever before, and they are one of the biggest rock bands still releasing new content. Despite what you may personally feel about the albums, the facts make it clear that Green Day is much more mainstream and relevant now than they were with Dookie.
What's my point? Regardless of how you feel personally about Green Day, you simply cannot deny that they are one of the if not the biggest rock groups right now. (I don't want a genre debate, but when splitting into pop, rock, rap, country, etc. they fall into rock) This game will do just fine. No, it won't have blisteringly difficult solos, and no, it won't have dreamscapes, but it will feature a band that is extremely popular and relevant and a bunch of songs that are #1 hits.
Also, if it is a full-on game like The Beatles RB, Harmonix could do some interesting stuff with American Idiot as the whole disc goes together as a "rock opera". Just saying. |
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sidney17
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 209
Location: Shropshire, England
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| BigKing wrote: | | What's an American Idiot? It's an album by an average band would me my first guess with my second guess being that it's any American citizen that purchased said album. |
o haah i c wat u did thur
| Quote: | | Why the love for Dookie? Well, it's what made them and has arguably their best songs because they were still "fresh". They then turned in middling albums at best with the highlight for me being the vomit-inducing "Time of your Life" song. Anyways, Dookie is what everyone clamors for because Green Day was tired by 1998. Then the poser BJA throws on some mascara and emo's out his look while tapping into the prevailing anti-war/Bush mood of the time and releases an adult contemporary rock album that another legion of teens eat up because they think it's punk while also picking up a new demographic: 40 year olds. |
So you're saying American Idiot is not punk, and that 40 year olds buying music is bad? Isn't (generally) the fact that so many people liked the album in any way indicating to you that the music might be, oh, I don't know, good? I love American Idiot. I also love Dookie. I really like 1039/Smoothed Out Slappy hours. You see, the problem is, you seem to be saying that Dookie was their only good album, and everything else was shit. They wrote what they chose to wrote in their latest albums, and yes people eat it up. But it's anything but your "wannabe punk" music.
| Quote: | 1) Nickelback is famous, people like them and they've apparently done something worth a shit. Let's make a RB: Nickelback
2) You are correct...they might as well have never made another album. |
1)................Lol, you're hilarious.
2) Well they did. And it got them a LOT of money and fans. In the same way that Harmonix should never make another music game, because of how great RB2, and how, I presume, you will be calling GD:RB a "wannabe" music game because of inclusions of everything except Dookie. You're right. Dookie is a great album. They were very fresh back then, to the extent that the album vomits raw punk music. All they've done since is experiment with their style and add what they can to it. And I believe their experimentation has been very succesful- with songs like Homecoming, in their "Dookie-like" nature, and songs like "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and "21 Guns" adding a very new, vocal center to Greenday that wasn't present before.
They are more diverse now than they have ever been. And I place full hope in HMX to translate that into the game.
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FrankieB
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 3413
Location: Lexington, KY
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| footballtom3685 wrote: | | and no, it won't have dreamscapes |
WAT
GREEN DAY SUX OMG NO DREAMSCAPES IS A DEAL BREAKER!!!
Oh and BigKing, just to give you a taste of your own medicine to show how retarded all of this insane arguing is...
Depeche Mode sucks. I'm sorry but I couldn't give two shits less about that band. Or The Cure. Or New Order. Or Tears for Fears. As far as I am concerned, those are all mediocre bands that make mediocre music, not to mention the people that listen to said bands and said music have horrible, shitty taste in music.
See how bizarre that sounds? To each and every one of you that has come in here to complain about how much Green Day sucks and has done nothing or has no good music, you show your ignorance of facts and your level of maturity.
Its all going to continue to boil down to like the band -> buy the game.
Just saying too, before The Beatles came out, I could give two shits about The Beatles. I don't care how many albums have sold, who they influenced, etc. Really could give a shit. But the game is AWESOME and I am now a fan of their music.
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ProffessorJoe  
Joined: 02 Feb 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| davidshek wrote: |
So just because relatively fewer people used it, that means it shouldn't be in the game at all? |
i just feel its a waste of time and money to implement a feature that large which gets very little use. I would also hate to see it get a lot of hype and then when the setlist comes out for rb3 only 1/3rd of the songs have harmonies =/ Everyone would be disappointed and they would all complain. And if they implement harmonies, are we positive our old dlc will work with RB3? If its either our DLC works or we have harmonies, i'll take my dlc 
(again, just my oppinion, no attacking was meant by this post)
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youhas 
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 3015
Location: Santa Clara, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| toymachine wrote: | So if somewhere down the line Van Halen and Metallica and Smash Hits all export fully we can just call them track packs and people can bash The Beatles: Rock Band for not exporting into RB3?
I just want to know if "IT'S ALRIGHT GUYS IT EXPORTS" gives a developer carte-blanche to do exactly what Guitar Hero gets accused of venomously everyday. |
It is, as always, a sliding spectrum. Some people, I'm sure, consider Van Halen artists of the highest caliber, for whom having random-ass avatars and created characters playing their songs is an almost sacrilegious action. And some people consider all charts to be created equal, where a lack of exportability is a grand and pointless injustice, making the Beatles giant rock-blocking douchebags for not allowing that to happen. (I've seen a vocal minority here carp about that second point from time to time.) Pick a band and a level of fandom and you have your response about how "acceptable" non-exportability is. "Bigger" bands are going to be given a greater leeway with this sort of thing by folks at large, naturally, though you're never going to get a consensual opinion. (Given how important exportability is to Harmonix's model, I honestly doubt that there are more than a half-dozen bands going which would ever be granted that ability to not export.)
You can play the artistic integrity card with Metallica and Van Halen if you'd like, sure. Some of it seems inconsistent and rings a bit hollow - "wait, didn't I play Van Halen and Metallica songs with Guitar Hero avatars in the past? and I can't do that now... because?" - but it's at least an arguable point. For the other one-off extra bands in those releases, though? Or the Smash Hits offering? There's pretty much zero reason why those should be relegated to their own little fiefdoms instead of giving users the options of adding them to the big ol' GH5 playability jamboree. ("But the artistic integrity of Leonard Smash and Gregory Hits might be compromised!") I'm glad they've finally started moving in this direction; frankly, I don't know what took them so long.
Long story short: It's not a carte blanche issue by any means. That's tantamount to saying "exportability is either always necessary or never necessary - pick a side!" - a false dilemma if ever I've seen one. The real world is more nuanced and complex than that, sadly.
| ProffessorJoe wrote: | | i'm probably the only one that will say this, but i pray that harmonies never makes it to another RB game. The idea was cool and all, but without the ablility to play them over xbl or psn really limits the amount of people that can play them. |
Aw, man, I love having harmonies in the game, especially with the way they get handled and scored, as they make party play situations a blast. You can hand out microphones willy-nilly to people and let everyone sing along, belting out whichever parts they happen to know from the songs. There's no real penalty for folks not pedantically singing just in their own note tube, and no harm done if everyone sings over each other if there's just the one vocal part going on at the time. It's a great low-hanging sort of way to get more people involved; I wish I could multi-mic up everything in RB2 in the same fashion, lack of harmony parts notwithstanding.
(Yes, the point about making sure we don't lose access to older DLC is appreciated. It's such a vanishingly unlikely course of action that I wouldn't lose the tiniest sliver of sleep over it, though.)
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BigKing
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Sidney and Frankie:
I know it's personal opinion and we will never agree. I happen to be a guy who can be crazy about a band, just love them to death, but when they release shit--or at least stuff that isn't as good as they have in the past--I'm not going to talk myself into it just because they are my boys.
Case in point the every Depeche Mode Album this decade. A couple of good songs on each but that doesn't make a good album. The Cure's best "album" this decade was a B-Sides box set: the Duran Duran and Tears for Fears albums sucked so hard that I almost wanted to cry. I feel that if you've been a fan of Green Day since the early days, and I don't mean being a fan of the early stuff if you didn't hear it until this decade, than you can't really feel that these last two albums are great unless you are a deaf Green Day homer: it doesn't matter what they put out because you will just eat it up.
There is nothing wrong with 40 year olds buying music obviously but the point is that they've lost their edge, whatever kind of edge they had. I know Dookie wasn't as "edgy" as their prior albums and they got shit for that back in the day...I can only imagine how those old fans who were in Berkley back then feel now.
You call their new sound "experimentation" while I call it selling out. They didn't selll shit with the old style anymore so, like I said, BJA got a Leto-makeover and they released a generic, radio friendly and un-threatening album to make money. The post a few above this showing the chart rankings only backs up my claim: Dookie did gang busters and then their last two albums did well because they changed their music to sell records. If they didn't have the "Dookie" cred, they would be lumped in with the rest of the crap on the radio. Obviously, I'm already doing that because Dookie was ages ago.
Of course, nothing wrong with selling out because you gotsta get paid but an album selling well doesn't mean it's good music. William Hung sold a shit load of albums and I shouldn't have to bring up Nickelback again. Hate to say it but the masses usually do have poor taste in music because they just take what is given them on the radio and music television. American Idiot got pushed hard because it came out AT THE PERFECT TIME TO RELEASE AN ALBUM TITLED AMERICAN IDIOT! It gets pushed, people are like "Hey Green Day! they are back! I used to like them!! Awesome!" so they dig it and all of a sudden Green Day is back. The album was so big that there was no way that the follow-up wouldn't sell well. This isn't getting near the play the last album did because AI caught lightning in a bottle. They will go back to their pre-AI status by the next album. Let's all remember this in 4 years so I can say "told you so". |
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Barfo
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 2596
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| BigKing wrote: | | There is nothing wrong with 40 year olds buying music obviously but the point is that they've lost their edge, whatever kind of edge they had. I know Dookie wasn't as "edgy" as their prior albums and they got shit for that back in the day...I can only imagine how those old fans who were in Berkley back then feel now. |
One thing you have to credit Green Day with, they are one of a very few, if any bands that actually managed to sell out to the mainstream on two totally separate occasions (dookie and am idiot). All the points in your post are pretty valid, and i personally tend to agree with your opinions as well (esp your list of good post-punk and new wave that is sorely underrepresented in GH/RB) but its all beside the point.
The issue is not really 'is greenday the most deserving band' to be the first non - beatles adventure into HMX-developed single band game, thats a sort of arbitrary question that really is unanswerable, basically any other band other than the beatles you could possibly choose is either goign to be too small to have it make any sense, or have a mix of die hard people it pleases and more people who think that *insert fav band here* would be more 'deserving'. The only question that can be answered in any objective way is in terms of marketability of the product, who other than green day could HMX have chosen that would have been a much much better choice. And greyfus's analysis i think goes a long way to show that really arent any obviously better choices than green day, among bands that are as big as them in terms of record sales, and in fact many of the bands as big or bigger than them are actually worse choices with only a few close ones.
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fmadmonk
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 200
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| footballtom3685 wrote: | I already stated most of this in my first post in the thread, but it was pretty much ignored by most people. I'll keep it short and sweet this time:
21st Century Breakdown, to my surprise, hit #1 on the charts in sixteen countries this year.
American Idiot hit #1 on the charts in nine countries just 5 years ago, two of those countries being the US and the UK.
Dookie hit #1 in two countries, New Zealand and Australia, 15 years ago. (and c'mon, that's with PAL >____>).
Green Day is more popular now than ever before, and they are one of the biggest rock bands still releasing new content. Despite what you may personally feel about the albums, the facts make it clear that Green Day is much more mainstream and relevant now than they were with Dookie.
What's my point? Regardless of how you feel personally about Green Day, you simply cannot deny that they are one of the if not the biggest rock groups right now. (I don't want a genre debate, but when splitting into pop, rock, rap, country, etc. they fall into rock) This game will do just fine. No, it won't have blisteringly difficult solos, and no, it won't have dreamscapes, but it will feature a band that is extremely popular and relevant and a bunch of songs that are #1 hits.
Also, if it is a full-on game like The Beatles RB, Harmonix could do some interesting stuff with American Idiot as the whole disc goes together as a "rock opera". Just saying. |
Not denying GD is a big band or anything, but let's see... comparing a band's first popularly released album 15 years ago when much of the world didn't know them to their latest effort when millions of people know them is a little odd.
I'm going to enter speculation mode: had 21st Century Breakdown been their first album 15 years ago and Dookie been released this year, I think Dookie would in turn have the edge.
Hell, who am I kidding. Dookie has sold over 27 million records per Wikipedia anyway. 21CB has sold 4.5 million. Say what you want about digital distribution, pirating, etc... but I will venture a guess that 21CB never comes much closer than that.
#1 in a country: important, but not most important.
And yes I realize the hypocrisy or Alanis-like irony in comparing the sales of two albums with 15yrs of difference.
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yakityyakblah
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 3985
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:44 am Post subject: |
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Metallica sold out 1) by making a music video for one 2) the black album 3) Load/reload 4) Going after Napster 5) St Anger and most recently 6) Guitar Hero Metallica
So they win the "most times their fanbase has claimed they've sold out" contest. |
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footballtom3685
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 2478
Location: Bay Area, CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:00 am Post subject: |
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fmadmonk: My overall point wasn't that their newer albums have a greater popular appeal than Dookie (although I still contend that they do), it's just that Green Day is very popular now. The combination of Dookie's sales over the years plus every album after is huge. Also:
| fmadmonk wrote: | | #1 in a country: important, but not most important. |
Uhh, ok, what's most important then?
| BigKing wrote: | | This game is for Green Day fans and those of you that are addicted to any music game that is put out. No way this sells well as I can't envision a casual player to be interested in this at all. |
| BigKing wrote: | | The post a few above this showing the chart rankings only backs up my claim: Dookie did gang busters and then their last two albums did well because they changed their music to sell records. If they didn't have the "Dookie" cred, they would be lumped in with the rest of the crap on the radio. Obviously, I'm already doing that because Dookie was ages ago. |
My point was arguing against the first quote. I don't see how you can acknowledge that all of their albums from Dookie on have been very successful, especially the most recent two, and still say that it won't sell well. That makes no sense.
Your argument that AI is the reason for 21st Century Breakdown's success is kinda silly, considering 21st Century Breakdown was not only successful but more successful on the charts than AI. By your logic that a successful album can only be followed up by a successful album Green Day's hypothetical next album will be a huge hit.
I've been a Green Day fan since I heard "I Fought the Law" on one of the early iTunes commercials during the super bowl 5 years ago. I loved their version (and at the time I was unaware it was even a cover) and went back to check out Dookie which I really enjoyed. I absolutely loved American Idiot when it came out, and I still do. 21st Century Breakdown was a bit of a let down and there were no songs that really stuck out for me, but I still think it's pretty good.
You're probably right that many of the original fans in Berkeley when they started out no longer like the band. Yeah, they changed their sound. I absolutely hate the term sell-out though.
While you can argue that the masses have terrible taste, the masses can argue that you have terrible taste. As the masses outnumber the minority, their argument has more support. It's all personal opinion. You can say Nickelback sucks all you want, but there are millions of people who disagree with you. Thousands of people think Nickelback is the best band in the world. You think they suck. Who's right? Nobody, it's all personal opinion.
What's not personal opinion is sales figures. Green Day has sales figures that outnumber most current rock groups. Therefore, Green Day Rock Band will sell well. End of story. |
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NavyCherub
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 3396
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:32 am Post subject: |
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Selling out is a dumb term because it is just one of the inevitable things that can happen to any band that meets success.
If a band changes their sound, they are called out for selling out and their older stuff is praised. If the hypothetical band keeps the exact same genre, they yelled at for not progressing and their older stuff is praised. In the case of punk (and most other genres, but this seems to have a larger affect on bands like Green Day), success and subsequent releases that are similar to their older releases can make fans believe they have lost touch with their "roots," which I can't really deny I suppose, as the life of a successful artist is quite different from that of a young punk band. The only reasonable solution seems to be to stop releasing material altogether, but then you are slowly (or quickly) forgotten.
So what is a band to do?
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TheLonging
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 4191
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| BigKing wrote: | | You call their new sound "experimentation" while I call it selling out. |
You call it selling out while I say selling out is the worst and most overused shittiest term ever, which lost all meaning and was devoid of anything important the moment it was first uttered.
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I wanna thank you for letting me be myself.
| NavyCherub wrote: | | AshleyWilis wrote: | hi for me Its something different...
It seems like Full sound full combo...
I mean It show passion and determination for my guitar |
Smoke weed erryday. |
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BizCasFri
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 1833
Location: Winnipeg, MB
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:53 am Post subject: |
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I dunno if I'm the only one who thinks this, but could Harmonix maybe...
...make a new game? Like, completely different from Rock Band? The market is really getting saturated and the only rhythm game lately that has gotten me as excited as Rock Band did in the beginning is DJ Hero. Harmonix has always been known as the innovator in the genre, so why am I getting excited about an Activision game?
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Prong1978
Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 2257
Location: Flint, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:12 am Post subject: |
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I have zero problems with a Green Day game.
Having said that, after Aerosmith (top selling American band of all time), The Beatles (top selling band period) and Metallica (top selling metal band of all time) everything is going to pale in comparison (with the possible exception of a Beatles-like jump for a band going from zero songs to a whole game in an instant).
There is no band that can be announced where we won't be having these exact same arguments/discussions.
Band X doesn't deserve a game.
Band X does deserve a game because of Y.
There is NO band that everyone would agree should get it's own game. None of this matters. And, if you're in this thread to argue that band games shouldn't exist, you're two years late for that argument.
As for this business about "selling out," perhaps it's possible that a band simply doesn't want to keep making the same stuff with the same sound. People change.
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lpunderground19
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 655
Location: WVU
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:25 am Post subject: |
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Rock Band Green Day will sell well because they are popular. Simple as that. The casual players are more likely to buy that game that the hardcore. So what the songs aren't difficult? That doesn't matter to most Rock Band players. They're a popular band, and therefore it will be a popular game.
The highest selling DLC song is All the Small Things. Is it difficult? No. Does everybody on ScoreHero like it? No. I'd say it's probably hated more here than most DLC songs. But to the casual fans (the majority of Rock Band players) it's a song they know and they downloaded it.
I'm more excited for this game than any other rhythm game ever made, I'll just add that in. I love Green Day, probably fourth favorite band of all time (and like Linkin Park, Blink, or Bad Religion will ever get their own game) |
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